0:00:03 - (Linda Habak): I'm Linda Habak and this is Build Beautiful. This isn't just a podcast about design. It's about the people behind the work and the truth behind the journey. The quiet pivots, the bold decisions, the failures no one sees, and the moments that change everything. Each episode, I sit down with architects, designers, developers, artists and creative entrepreneurs not to talk about success, but about what it takes to get there.

0:00:33 - (Linda Habak): The process, the doubt, the grit, the heart. If you believe in creating with meaning and living a life with intention, then you'll feel right at home here. Welcome to Build Beautiful, where design meets depth in the world of design. Some people sell furniture, Others quietly build movements. Karon Grunschlag straddles both. With a background in psychology and a first career in finance, Karon's path to design wasn't linear, but it was deeply intentional.

0:01:12 - (Linda Habak): Today, as the co founder of Kaizu, she supplies some of the world's most iconic furniture to Australia's most refined commercial spaces. But her impact runs deeper than that. Karon is a nurturer of culture, of connection and of community. Through the indie group, she's cultivated a space where designers, architects and creatives gather not just to network, but to belong. It's a rare kind of generosity to build platforms for others to shine.

0:01:41 - (Linda Habak): In this episode, we explore what it means to weave soul into commerce and how a rich life with pivots can lead to something enduring. We talk about the courage to shift paths and the grace of leading quietly. This is a story about design. Yes, but more than that, it's about belonging and it's about the quiet strength it takes to create spaces and systems that upload everyone they touch. Here's my conversation with Karon.

0:02:12 - (Caron Grunschlag): Hi. Oh, Linda, thank you. Welcome.

0:02:18 - (Linda Habak): Welcome.

0:02:19 - (Caron Grunschlag): So lovely. I just never thought of it anymore myself in that way.

0:02:25 - (Linda Habak): That's definitely how I see you. Thank you for joining me on the couch and for this episode of Build Beautiful. Really excited to chat to you today. It's been such a joy getting to know you over the last almost couple of years now and working alongside you on the indie group. So let's start at the beginning. You did a Bachelor of Arts with a major in psychology. Tell me about that. What did you learn and how has that helped you through the years in all the different things that you've done in your career?

0:02:59 - (Caron Grunschlag): It was the late. I started university in 1981, so I had did it because I needed therapy. My mother had died when I was 15, and in those days you didn't get that support and so I knew I needed something, so that was really why I studied psychology. And I'm still processing that. It's not easy losing your mother when you're so young and also having a father traumatized from the Holocaust. So it was a way of trying to make sense of my world.

0:03:46 - (Caron Grunschlag): So I took it, ran with it and forever have been working on understanding more about myself, about others and about the world of which I, I had no control of. I really enjoy it. I love people's stories and I have also done some tele counseling and people's stories can be really frightening. But it's a skill set that wasn't really taught at school in terms of emotional intelligence. And emotional intelligence, they say, is a better indicator of success than iq.

0:04:29 - (Caron Grunschlag): So I really love, love working with that and trying to understand and create connection.

0:04:37 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely. And we're going to talk about connection later. You went from doing that and then you went into finance and you were in finance for 10 years. So did you not see a career in psychology or what drew you to finance? And then how did learning about the mind and people and yourself, how did that help you in your finance career?

0:04:59 - (Caron Grunschlag): So I understood through my studies that it was not something that I wanted to do as a profession. It required too much in terms of I had to learn better boundaries. I still needed to do more work on myself before I could possibly even consider that. But what I always did want to do was to work in small business. So my father had a business, my uncle. I used to remember, you know, sitting around the table listening to them talk about business.

0:05:34 - (Caron Grunschlag): And I was always fascinated and wanted to do that, but I didn't have the capacity to study economics or accounting at university because I was too broken. So I needed to heal myself. Then I decided that every business requires finance. And so I thought if I work for a bank then from that perspective I'll be able to understand business because I'll be able to understand the requirements that a bank looks at when they're assessing a business to be able to know how to look after that side.

0:06:10 - (Caron Grunschlag): So I started off a graduate trainee and then I decided that I needed big bank exposure. So I went to the NAB and then up at Macquarie bank and it was first of all money market and then I was doing bonds.

0:06:27 - (Linda Habak): And was it very male dominated back then? Oh yeah. How did you deal with that?

0:06:34 - (Caron Grunschlag): There were quite a few women in the industry. I remember at one point I was at Citibank and I was the only female and 100 men in the room.

0:06:44 - (Linda Habak): Wow.

0:06:45 - (Caron Grunschlag): So it was. It's private school. They were. It was tough at times, so I decided that I just didn't. It's a pyramid when you're in the corporate world and at some point you have to look to jump off. So either you're aiming for the top or you've got to jump off at some point. So.

0:07:08 - (Linda Habak): So that brings me to my next question. You joined K Zoo in the mid-90s after 10 years in finance, stepping into a creative business. I mean, it's. It's a creative business in that it's selling designer furniture. It was an uncertain economic time at the time. Is that right in the mid-90s when you joined?

0:07:28 - (Caron Grunschlag): Yes, yes.

0:07:29 - (Linda Habak): How did you manage that and how did your experience in finance help you steer the ship at that time?

0:07:36 - (Caron Grunschlag): I was trying to work out what I was going to do since I'd left banking, and I even tried real estate for a little while.

0:07:44 - (Linda Habak): So you did a few things before you moved into. I did.

0:07:46 - (Caron Grunschlag): Looking at what was, you know, what was felt. Right. But it was always about trying to get into business. And then I met Mark through a friend of mine and he said, I'm looking to sell half my business because I want to be able to have time out. And I said, you know, yep, that's great. That works for me. And so I worked for him for about six months and then I said, yes, I'm interested. And then I bought half the business.

0:08:16 - (Linda Habak): That's amazing.

0:08:17 - (Caron Grunschlag): From him.

0:08:18 - (Linda Habak): And how did you manage that time around the gfc and was that a difficult time for your business?

0:08:26 - (Caron Grunschlag): Not as difficult as Covid and Post Covid. Nothing has been as difficult as Covid as these last few years. Yeah, it was difficult, but nothing like.

0:08:38 - (Linda Habak): So how have you managed that process? How have you steered the ship then? Because I imagine there's a lot of pivoting required.

0:08:46 - (Caron Grunschlag): You try different things. So, you know, early on we thought we would go more vertical and do. We were already working to the A and D market and we thought we would try retail as well. So we tried that and that didn't really work for us. And then we focused just on the A and D market. And then there were different sectors within the A and D market. It was a matter of identifying those. I looked at why we weren't getting schedules of the big projects and I realized that the companies that were all had workstations and task chairs and we had decided we didn't want to go down that road because the margins were really, really low.

0:09:31 - (Linda Habak): Right.

0:09:32 - (Caron Grunschlag): So we then realized that we had to then to get into that market and get our products considered that we looked at wholesaling to those companies that were focused on that and that loose furniture was considered more of a sideline. And that was where our area of expertise was. So there a new company that was created as an amalgamation of a lot of little companies and we had a really good relationship with one of the dealers and we then looked to wholesale to them.

0:10:12 - (Caron Grunschlag): So we looked to grow the wholesale side of the business in that way and focus on different areas of the contract market. So we looked at education and we also have been working in healthcare. The most recent one is churches. We're focused on churches.

0:10:31 - (Linda Habak): That's amazing. And how did you come into that space?

0:10:35 - (Caron Grunschlag): Well, you look at always look at market demand. One of the things is I looked at task chairs and all the task chairs were about being mesh. And so and I said, you know, designers like to have things that complement other pieces that will be in the space. And so therefore if they have a mesh task chair, they'll be interested in a mesh chair. So Mark went off looking and we found this amazing chair out of Japan that wasn't being represented in Australia.

0:11:08 - (Caron Grunschlag): They only had one representative in the US and it was a high density stacking chair.

0:11:13 - (Linda Habak): Amazing.

0:11:14 - (Caron Grunschlag): And so that's become like our bread and butter. You always need a bread and butter in a business. And that cash cow. Yep, you need a cash cow. Therefore, with high density stacking chairs, what are the markets where there is a need for that and then taking it.

0:11:32 - (Linda Habak): To those markets and how do you approach those markets? Are you going in cold or. Yeah. What's the process of tapping into a market that you haven't tapped into previously?

0:11:44 - (Caron Grunschlag): The great thing about working with architects and designers is that you build these beautiful relationships and then they get different projects. And that's what I've always loved about being in this sector is that I get to go on the ride with them as they. So we've put furniture in jails and we've done, you know, schools and just so understanding what are the needs? You know, always I work from a needs basis and in terms of with working with my salespeople, I always say to them, I don't want you to sell, do not sell.

0:12:23 - (Caron Grunschlag): I just want you to ask questions. I just want you to understand the needs and I want you to match the needs. Because there's a problem and we're problem solvers and every time there's a problem, we have to find out what it is and then we can make recommendations to assist in that.

0:12:42 - (Linda Habak): I love that because it's so aligned to what we do as architects and designers where a client comes to us with a problem, you know, or a desire, and then our job is to decipher that and find a resolution for it. And so we're working very much in parallel. So psychology isn't something we often associate with supply chain, but it's clearly informed your leadership. How has your understanding of people really influenced the way you operate in your business?

0:13:12 - (Caron Grunschlag): So many levels in absolutely everything that you do in life. So in working with people, you need to understand what often where anxiety or miscommunication can come from. One of the key factors is that anxiety comes from not knowing what's expected. And so therefore we worked hard then on systems and having systems. So people knew then what was expected of them and you had then measurable parameters.

0:13:45 - (Caron Grunschlag): So that took it to help them take away that anxiety. Also then working with them as terms of coaches. So I see myself as a coach rather than a manager and trying to help them grow as individuals because I've always defined job enjoyment by the steepness of the learning curve. And so I'm looking for people to work with that have a growth mindset. And growth mindset is critical for me.

0:14:16 - (Linda Habak): We've talked about that a lot. Yeah.

0:14:19 - (Caron Grunschlag): And I don't. Not all my employees have a growth mindset and I really struggle, struggle working with those.

0:14:24 - (Linda Habak): So how do you coach them if they have a fixed mindset? Is it coachable? Can you teach someone to have a growth mindset?

0:14:32 - (Caron Grunschlag): Not always. You can. It's like leading a horse to water. You can't always make a drink, but so I try and lead them to there. I remember even giving for growth mindset. The book is Mindset by Carol Dwick. So I've given the book Christmas present.

0:14:51 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:14:52 - (Caron Grunschlag): You know, and this one was becoming a parent. So I thought it might be more open towards it because as they're studying about how they want, what sort of parent they want to be. And so I thought it might be a good opening in that way. And actually I did see some improvement with that person after they did become a parent. It's something that you could get pushback on, but it's when you have someone that has growth mindset, it's phenomenal to be able to work with because possibilities are endless and we love failure.

0:15:26 - (Linda Habak): Yes. Talk to me about. Let's stay here with failure for a moment because I've heard you say this before. Tell me, what's your thinking around failure and why it's so important actually to fail.

0:15:38 - (Caron Grunschlag): I read somewhere that the acronym for fail is First Attempt in Learning.

0:15:44 - (Linda Habak): Love that.

0:15:45 - (Caron Grunschlag): So I have always sat back and I've allowed people to fail. I had to, because they know that they have to learn. It costs me money.

0:15:54 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, I was going to say it costs you money. I know it costs me money. I know that feeling well.

0:15:58 - (Caron Grunschlag): So. Yeah, but it's an investment.

0:16:01 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely.

0:16:02 - (Caron Grunschlag): Therefore, when I run a sales meeting, I will look, tell me about the great things that you had this week. But also I want to know, where did you fail? How did you fail? And let's learn from that. But if you've got a fixed mindset, you cannot look at failure as something that is a positive to help you grow. So that's where the problem is with a fixed mindset.

0:16:28 - (Linda Habak): I want to talk about integrity, because I see you as someone who has high integrity. How has that informed you in your business dealings, in your life dealings?

0:16:40 - (Caron Grunschlag): I want to sleep at night.

0:16:43 - (Linda Habak): Yes. It's a luxury, isn't it?

0:16:46 - (Caron Grunschlag): Is it? No, I don't think it's a luxury. I think, isn't it necessity?

0:16:49 - (Linda Habak): Necessity, yes.

0:16:50 - (Caron Grunschlag): It's a necessity in terms of do you have short term or long term goals? So if you have a long term goal, which we do because we're looking at building relationships and connection, there has to be trust. So it comes down to trust. And for someone to trust you in terms of recommendations or for them to open up and to share with you, that is integral. And what do they say? That, you know, if you have one bad review, they'll tell five people.

0:17:24 - (Caron Grunschlag): And so therefore, it's also respect, respect to the individual and the respect of your customer, respect of your staff, that everyone is just trying to do their best.

0:17:37 - (Linda Habak): I want to move on to community. And what did you envision when you first started the indie group? We're going to talk about this incredible community that you've cultivated. So I know it started during COVID Can you take me back? What was your desire back then and did you see a need for this? And what was that feeling for you and for others?

0:18:03 - (Caron Grunschlag): It started back in 2018, and at that time we had the MeToo movement going on. And so what we saw in the MeToo movement, we saw women standing up and asserting their rights and asserting themselves against being wronged. That was mostly against men. But for me, what I took from that was that the power of women coming together. But the concept actually came to me earlier. So in 2014, I took my son to Canada to Rewire his brain.

0:18:40 - (Caron Grunschlag): And in Canada, the school that we attended, it had this incredible parents group. And once a month the parents would come to the school and the school would educate them about the particular exercises that they were doing. And I saw this sense of community happening there. Then we created this parents association to be able to talk to the school about our issues. And I went, oh, wow. I really love this coming together. I love that we've got this expat community in Vancouver of which there was like 120 Australian and New Zealand families.

0:19:20 - (Caron Grunschlag): So how do I transport that now back in my life in Australia? At the same time, because I'd been away, I had a disconnect from our clients. And I have salespeople. So the salespeople were the ones having the relationships with interior designers and architects. And I was going, oh, but I really like those people. I like creatives. I love being around the world working with them. So. And I think that I can bring value to the salespeople as well as to the designers.

0:19:53 - (Caron Grunschlag): So I decided I would have also designers come to me that I knew and say, do you know how other designers do their fee proposals? Do you know how other designers do this? And I had, like, about four or five of them coming to me at the time, and I just thought, you all need to talk. But understanding that women, if they're feel that there's a level of competition, are not likely to lean in and they can be a little territorial.

0:20:24 - (Caron Grunschlag): And I thought, how can I break this down? Because when they do lean in, it's so powerful. So I decided I'm going to create a network group. And I had absolutely no idea what it was going to be. I just had a gut feeling that because of the experiences that I was having, that there was a need out there and if there wasn't, then it would feel some nothing lost. So I started off with a breakfast, and there was 10 of us and Willara.

0:20:53 - (Caron Grunschlag): And just before the breakfast, I get a phone call from Pia Karan. What are you going to do about this group? How are you going to. You're going to have to stand up and make a speech. You're going to have to do this. Okay, Pia? I've got no idea, Pia. But we will find something and it'll be like. She goes, I did it once, you know, we had, like, dinners and it just, you know, we did about four. And I said, well done, Leon. That was good. But let's see, it was sort of a bit hard in the beginning, but then we found a cause and when you find a cause that creates the us and them.

0:21:31 - (Caron Grunschlag): And so therefore, we were creating the us and the us. Was this against the Building Commission and the fact that interior designers were left out of the Design and Building Practitioners Act. And that is. Is what really brought that community together. And that's where we saw the growth and that's where we saw the unity, because we were fighting a bigger cause and interior designers were fighting for their lives.

0:21:55 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:21:56 - (Caron Grunschlag): For me, being part of this group, it met the need of connection with designers. It met the need that understanding what it is that motivates you, what drives you, what your problems are, what your issues are, so that I can see how, you know, we can assist and be better at our jobs as well in working and creating those connections.

0:22:22 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. There's such value in that. There's something deeply generous about creating a free platform for others to grow. And the indie group is a free platform. What drives your generosity?

0:22:35 - (Caron Grunschlag): I don't think of work as a paid platform, but only because the expectation. When you have to pay, expectations change. Remember, you know, I have a furniture business, and then these people are still my clients as well. But I'm not pushing and promoting the business. So it would be that the expectations of everyone within the group would change, and I don't know that I would have to commit to that full time.

0:23:02 - (Caron Grunschlag): And also, as you know, we have a subgroup within the indie group who help decide on the topics, who decide on the direction, decide on the focus. How could you have that input? So it's really. I see myself as an administrator trying to get you all working together, and that's all I am.

0:23:26 - (Linda Habak): You do amazingly well, I have to say.

0:23:29 - (Caron Grunschlag): But that's all it is, really. It's just helping create a structure. And to be able to feed in, to my great delight about this group is how positive it is. We don't have any negativity, not at all. The power of the group is the WhatsApp group.

0:23:46 - (Linda Habak): Yes, absolutely.

0:23:47 - (Caron Grunschlag): Where people create those connections. I love the stories that are coming out of people who have met within the group and friendships have been formed or relationships and business things have created. Like when Rachel Lecchetti nominated Meryl Hair for her Luminary Award and she hadn't met Meryl before. And so, like, that brings me joy.

0:24:09 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely. Yeah. It's an incredible community, and it really is a wonderful example of women lifting women up. And we need that. We need that in our industry. We need that in our lives. Yeah. What has leading a community of designers and architects taught you about not just collaboration, but about yourself.

0:24:30 - (Caron Grunschlag): That I can do it. It instills greater self confidence within me. You reach a certain age and I'm a certain age. And so you start focusing less about yourself and you start talking about legacies and you start thinking more about how you can give back. And that has been kind of more my focus of wanting to make change and take a bigger role in terms of that.

0:25:06 - (Linda Habak): That's wonderful. Cause it leads me to my next question around what do you see for the future? What excites you about the future? And what stamp do you want to leave on the work that you've done all these years? This is a safe space.

0:25:23 - (Caron Grunschlag): It's a safe space, but it's just the times that we're in now. The times that we're in now. So what I do know is that when you face these sorts of times in adversity, you must pivot. You cannot stay stagnant. Particularly when you have your own business. You must always be examining, particularly your losses, particularly, why did I, not this client, not sign with me? Or as you do it so well, Linda, you know, you are constantly with your inquiring mind, looking at, oh, AI, I need to understand AI. I need to understand how that's going to impact. So it's about risk assessment.

0:26:06 - (Caron Grunschlag): It's always about assessing risk and that is the key to it. So that, for example, one of the things like I adopted in the business that I've taken from banking was about assessing risk. If you are exposed only to one market, say for example, the corporate market, as you know, there are cycles.

0:26:27 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely.

0:26:28 - (Caron Grunschlag): So therefore the best way, like they say with investments, is that you have a basket of exposures so that you're not exposed to just that one risk. That would be one of the things that I would say going forward, because change happens so much faster than it used to happen and you really have to be incredibly adaptable to that.

0:26:55 - (Linda Habak): How do you think AI is going to impact your business?

0:26:58 - (Caron Grunschlag): Well, I love AI.

0:27:00 - (Linda Habak): I love AI too.

0:27:05 - (Caron Grunschlag): You have to embrace it. Yes, it is, particularly administration. So one of my frustrations is that I can't control everyone's emails. And so you have staff that sort of go off making these assertions or claims or giving away information that you've preferred that they didn't. And does AI help in terms of doing that? It helps.

0:27:26 - (Linda Habak): Have you got a policy around AI or do you think you'll introduce a policy around AI into the business? Or is it really just everyone is encouraged to, to lean into it?

0:27:38 - (Caron Grunschlag): At the moment, I'm just getting them to lean into it because they're not all like young people aren't embracing it really.

0:27:46 - (Linda Habak): I know, like I can refer to my teenage children who are constantly saying to me, stop it. We don't want to hear about it anymore.

0:27:55 - (Caron Grunschlag): Are they not part of AI?

0:27:57 - (Linda Habak): Well, I think they use it, but. But certainly not as much as I use it. I use the IT daily. But I think with AI, from my perspective is it's only as good as the inputs that you give it. So you have to be very critical and strategic in how you use it. If you're going to use it just to write an essay for university and not actually learn, then, well, yeah, that's going to rot your brain. But if you use it critically as a thinking partner and a strategic partner, then it can transform how you run a business, how you grow something.

0:28:32 - (Linda Habak): But you have to really sort of come from that perspective of I am the user as opposed to, I'm just gonna take whatever it gives me and take that as gospel.

0:28:42 - (Caron Grunschlag): I remember with my son when he was doing well, he's at university now, second year university and through hsc, it was his tutor. So therefore he was submitting all of his essays, refining what difference is it to a tutor or a teacher in terms of feedback. Right, absolutely. So therefore. But he would do the first draft of the essay would help him particularly has his ADHD brain, which struggles with those sorts of things. So it taught him structure, it taught him how to be able to do it better.

0:29:17 - (Caron Grunschlag): And so it's again, everything in life is what perspective because of your growth mindset.

0:29:23 - (Linda Habak): That's right. Can we circle back to Vancouver if you don't mind talking about it? Because you said you went there to rewire your son's brain. So I love that story and I just think there is so much goodness in that story because you were such an advocate for your son. And I think I'm a parent and you've been a wonderful guide to me around advocating for one of my daughters who also has adhd. I think this would be a really relevant topic for people listening to this episode.

0:29:57 - (Caron Grunschlag): Yeah, yeah, I talk about it all the time. Cause it's. My son presented with really quite severe ADHD and he really symptoms started from 3, age 3. He's presented with sensory processing disorder. He had speech therapy issues, he had auditory issues. He had a whole lot of things. And as a parent, what happens is that come to age eight and the teachers are going, we can't teach him. He's unteachable because he's all over the place in terms of his body and annoying people.

0:30:39 - (Caron Grunschlag): He can't learn. And so then you get sent to a developmental pediatrician and the only solution you ever get from a developmental pediatrician is drugs. In this day and age, we don't want to give our 8 year olds drugs and we don't want to do that and is there. So I had to, I started doing the deep dive, taking the psychology background in terms of trying to understand the brain, trying to understand what is going on for this child.

0:31:08 - (Caron Grunschlag): And so we did start the drugs. And the teacher said to me, when he's on medication, he can do four pages of mass, but when he's not on the medication, he can only do one. When he's on the medication, kids are asked, could they please sit next to him? When he's not on the medication, they're asking, could he please be removed? So you've got the social as well as the academic side that you need to address.

0:31:34 - (Caron Grunschlag): So he started the medication and then you do a short form of Ritalin and then it went to the long form of Ritalin and he started the long form and he's eight years of age. And my son became suicidal and he's climbing the walls. Literally, I saw him climbing the walls and I freak out and I go, what do I do? And I just was fortunate that I saw on Facebook a friend of mine that said that she was in Canada at this special school which was all about neuroplasticity before. If we look at medicine, we look at speech therapy, all of those things are all steeped on the fact that the brain is fixed and that the brain doesn't change. So they teach compensation around that.

0:32:22 - (Caron Grunschlag): Now we know that the brain is plastic and that the brain does in fact change. I looked at this post that she said, and she said there's gonna be a program in 60 minutes about this school in Canada. So I watched the program and then within a matter of two weeks after I heard her speak, I was touching down in Vancouver. Didn't know where we were gonna stay. Whatever I had applied to the school, obviously we'd got a place.

0:32:50 - (Caron Grunschlag): I lied to my I told him that we're going to Canada because I needed to for work, because I was ripping him away from all his friends. I was ripping away from his family. So he was there eight, nine hours a day doing the different exercises which targeted his particular weaknesses. He was 9 years of age and he cried every night for the first six months being Away from home. And that was hard, but, you know, you're on a mission and you just have to go all in.

0:33:26 - (Caron Grunschlag): I was just all in. And we did that for two and a half years. And then he came back for grade six. And I'm telling you, it was really hard going. There were tears and they part. He had this incredible teacher who, like, she was trying to break them, you know what I mean? But to build them back up. And that's where I learned about growth mindset. That's where I learned about Marshall Rosenberg's work on needs.

0:33:58 - (Caron Grunschlag): Because we had parent groups. I had conducted parent groups in my house where the parents would do what the school was doing with the kids around growth mindset and particularly around Marshall Rosenberg's work. And so we had to. And we wanted to create a holistic experience for these kids. So the parents had to learn. Learn how to do that. And so that was really. Those experiences fed me into the indie groove.

0:34:24 - (Caron Grunschlag): And it was. I just thought, oh, I never had this in Australia. Parents were discouraged from. Parents think that they know it all.

0:34:34 - (Linda Habak): We don't.

0:34:35 - (Caron Grunschlag): I didn't have any parents.

0:34:36 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:34:37 - (Caron Grunschlag): So therefore I, you know, I didn't know whether it was just me or whether it was someone else that, you know. Did your parents tell you how to parents?

0:34:45 - (Linda Habak): No, you just. You just parent. I mean, there's no manual. And I think you need a sense of community to know you're not alone in it. And I think that's what you fostered over in Vancouver with these other parents. And that's why I think you're so good at the community you've created with the indie group. And so your beautiful son, now his brain has been rewired and he's doing extremely well. He's at university.

0:35:10 - (Linda Habak): And honestly, I think it's incredible that you advocated for him and you changed it. The trajectory of his life.

0:35:17 - (Caron Grunschlag): Well, he had to do the work.

0:35:19 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:35:20 - (Caron Grunschlag): Again, like with Indy, you know, I create the structure. So if we take it back to design, you know what I mean? I'm just the architect, you know, and then the interior design come in and they make it. But really what makes it a home is the family, the people living in it.

0:35:37 - (Linda Habak): Of course.

0:35:38 - (Caron Grunschlag): So I'm just an architect in creating structure and a bit of a coach to encourage people to take risks, to believe. Believe in themselves, and to also the opportunities to show gratitude and to accolades when people win things or when they get nominated. It's just how we can, I guess, Uplift.

0:36:00 - (Linda Habak): That's right. Lift women. Lifting women up. We're coming to the end of this beautiful conversation. Sadly, my last question for you is, what does Build Beautiful mean to you?

0:36:12 - (Caron Grunschlag): It means that momentum moving forward. And in what way are we moving forward? With our senses and aesthetics and purpose and intelligence. So that's what it means for me.

0:36:32 - (Linda Habak): I love that. Thank you. It's been such a good conversation. I've enjoyed it so much.

0:36:37 - (Caron Grunschlag): Oh, thank you, Linda. Thank you.

0:36:44 - (Linda Habak): Thank you for listening to Build Beautiful. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love it if you'd follow the show, leave a review, or share it with someone who's building something meaningful. It matters more than you know. Follow us on Instagram Build Beautiful podcast Until next time. Keep creating with intention, and together we build Beautiful.