0:01:37 - (Linda Habak): Welcome back to Build Beautiful. Today's guest is someone whose work speaks in a quiet but deeply resonant voice. Eva Marie Prinius is the founder of Studio Prinius, a female LED B Corp. Certified architecture practice based in Sydney, known for its commitment to sustainability, sensitivity to heritage, and the belief that architecture should elevate how we live, not just what we see. Eva Marie's work often begins with a blank page, but with something already full of memory. A weathered brick wall, a Federation archway, a sun drenched corridor.

0:02:14 - (Linda Habak): Her studio doesn't just design new spaces, they rediscover old ones. They honor what came before. In a world driven by more, faster, newer, Eva Marie offers another lens, one where design is slower, more intentional, and where perhaps the most radical act we can take is to build less. In this conversation, we talk about why. In this conversation, we talk about why restraint is a design principle. How heritage isn't about replication, but reinterpretation.

0:02:47 - (Linda Habak): How sustainability is a mindset, not just a materials list. And how at the heart of it all is a deep respect for people, place and purpose. Here's my conversation with Eva Marie. Eva Marie.

0:03:02 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Hi, Linda. Hello. Are people generally on the verge of tears after you introduce them? Because that was so beautiful.

0:03:11 - (Linda Habak): Oh, I'm so glad you love it. And yes, I think we generally have a similar reaction every time.

0:03:16 - (Eva Marie Prineas): That's amazing. What a lovely understanding of our pursuit as a practice and what I truly believe in.

0:03:25 - (Linda Habak): I'm so happy that I was able to honor that because that's my mission and my goal of this podcast is really to hold space for those stories and to highlight them in a really human way and not in a two dimensional way. So I'm so honored you would join me today. I'm so excited. I think it's always interesting to go back to a person's origins and their, you know, the original first part of their story.

0:03:54 - (Linda Habak): So I'm really interested to understand why architecture for you. Where did it all start? Where did that desire, interest come from?

0:04:05 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah, I think a lot of things, like let me start again. There were, there are probably a lot of influences that led me to architecture throughout my childhood. My mother was a teacher and an art teacher and I've got vivid memories of us. My sister and I just in the garden in one of dad's old shirts, painting. Like there was always big tubes of colored paint and we were always outside spending time in the sun and being creative.

0:04:43 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And my parents also spent a lot of time in the garden. So we used to build little things and make little, you know, Ponds and all kinds of things. Anyway, so we had. We were using our hands and really interested in, like, that kind of play. And I grew up in the suburbs, so that was our sort of little world, this beautiful backyard. But then, as well as that, we did a lot of travel, and my parents both migrated to Australia when they were young.

0:05:15 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So dad came out from Greece when he was about 7. And then my mum also. She, in fact, was also from a Greek family, but she grew up in Egypt, like a lot of Greek people. And so she was sort of living in Cairo in this incredible time when it was a melting pot of amazing cultures that had moved to Cairo. And she went to a French school and, you know, spoke Greek at home and then learned Italian and then learned Arabic because so she was, like, multilingual.

0:05:46 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And I think that they instilled. I think having those languages is a really important part of understanding a place. And when my sister and I were born, Mum and Dad spoke to us only in Greek until we started school. So that was my first language. And. And at the time, I didn't know any better. But I think over many, many years, it made me realize what an unbelievable gift that was that my parents gave me, because it's so hard to learn a language as an adult, but when you're sort of gifted as a child, you've got it forever. And it really does give you an incredible connection to a place.

0:06:30 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And so, yeah, and we went on lots of overseas holidays, so we were able to understand other cultures. And having been a child living in suburban Sydney and then going overseas and seeing, you know, incredible historic buildings and also seeing how cities work in different places, I think it just opened my eyes to what was possible.

0:06:53 - (Linda Habak): That's amazing. And then, did you always know in high school that you wanted to study architecture? Yeah, I think so. It was kind of always destined, I.

0:07:03 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Think, so I think it was always there and I wondered whether I'd be any good at it. And I was always trying to solve little planning problems, whether, you know, it was at someone's house or at home or trying to design little buildings on the side. Like, I was always sort of thinking about things like that because I was interested in creating other worlds, I suppose.

0:07:21 - (Linda Habak): Love that.

0:07:23 - (Eva Marie Prineas): But then I wasn't sure, but I think after the first few weeks of architecture school, I realised that I was in the right place. And, yeah, it was just so fun and opened my eyes to another world and another way of thinking.

0:07:40 - (Linda Habak): I love that. Speaking of another way of thinking, that's what I love about Your practice, Because I think how you approach architecture is. It's really unique and it really speaks to you as a person. So you've now been in business for 20 years. What is running the business? What has it taught you about yourself? And did you imagine that you'd still be doing this for 20? Now that you're 20 years in, do you look back and go, I could have given up at any point? Or were you just always in it for the long haul?

0:08:16 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I think I've always been in it for the long haul. But what has surprised me is the way the practice has grown and developed. Because I think in my head I thought, I've got to start my own practice because, you know, if I want to keep practicing architecture and have a family and do all of these things, it's going to be a lot easier. Things are great now. Everything's changed. The work, you know, the world has changed. The world has changed. But when.

0:08:44 - (Linda Habak): I know what you mean.

0:08:51 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah. 20 years ago, and no one was interested in even, you know, seemingly making it work. It was just not an acceptable way to practice. So. But now it's. Now it's really, really different. So I think in my head, when I started my practice, I thought, I will. It would just always be me on my own or me and maybe a student doing a couple of days a week or something. And the way the practice has developed and the way that we've been able to grow into a really great team and be able to mentor young graduates up and see them become registered and become associates and, yeah, become really great architects. I think that's something that I never. That. That is a level of satisfaction that I never thought was, you know, even on the table.

0:09:46 - (Linda Habak): That's amazing. It's so good because you. It's paying it forward, too. It's building these people up. And. And because as an architect in particular, I think you're a custodian and, you know, you're honoring place and buildings. And I think to be able to instill that vision in others from that very young sort of career stage is. Is a gift. But it leads me to my next thing, which is one of the said recently on a panel that we were on together was the most important thing we can do is build less, which is very unusual for an architect.

0:10:20 - (Linda Habak): So can you talk me through that thinking and what inspires that idea?

0:10:26 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah, look, I think as a practice, as architects, we've always Been trained even from university to think about the environment and think about practicing in a responsible way and a sustainable way. But I think over the last few years we've realized that sustainability is not really possible and responsibility is something that we need to be more aware of. You can't just specify good materials that have low embodied carbon or make buildings that are cheaper to run.

0:11:02 - (Eva Marie Prineas): We need to do more. And as an industry, the construction industry is, you know, it pretty much equates to 40% of global greenhouse emissions. So I think, you know, if we're going to come anywhere near this 2050 Paris Agreement, we need to do drastic things. And, you know, the solution is not necessarily a building. It might be a different solution or it might be, you know, it's definitely gotta be around building less.

0:11:38 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So, yeah, that's the only way that we can really reduce our impact.

0:11:47 - (Linda Habak): And then how do you communicate that to clients? Like, how are you starting to weave that language in right from the get go with your clients? And the second question to that is, do you ever get pushback from a client who just envisages that they want to, you know, if they're renovating, they want to knock the whole back end of the house off or they want to just completely demolish, like talk me through that. Client interaction and education.

0:12:15 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Ye, yeah, it's interesting. So firstly, I would say that it's great to have opportunities like this because we can talk about it. And I think the more you talk about what you think, the more our clients are aware of what our sort of pursuit is. So, so that makes it a lot easier because if you're putting the message out there, it's like any kind of marketing. If you put out the right message, then you'll get the right clients.

0:12:49 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So that's, I think the first part and then the second part is. Yeah, look, sometimes it's hard. Sometimes. For example, our recent project montage, which I think you've seen little bits of Amazing project. Thank you. And look, that project really was. It sort of, to me epitomizes this whole idea. But you know, it was coupled with time constraints and budget constraints and you know, the design and building practitioners act constraints which make things take, take longer.

0:13:31 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So we were able to use those constraints to really get an outcome that was also incredibly environmentally responsible.

0:13:40 - (Linda Habak): That's amazing.

0:13:41 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So it was about the way we framed it. And I think that the outcome is something that the clients are really proud of. And it might not have been their initial thinking, but it ticked all their boxes. And it also ticked all of ours.

0:14:00 - (Linda Habak): That's. I mean, that's like a unicorn.

0:14:02 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Right.

0:14:02 - (Linda Habak): To have that situation where you're really happy with all of the outcomes and the client's really happy with all of the outcomes. But how did you approach the conversation with them? And did you get pushback and how did you deal with it if you did?

0:14:17 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Well, I think, you know, in that case, because we did have budget and time constraints, we sort of leant on those.

0:14:25 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:14:25 - (Eva Marie Prineas): We didn't talk about the carbon footprint or the other things as much. That wasn't the main reason.

0:14:36 - (Linda Habak): So you talk to them in the language that they understand.

0:14:39 - (Eva Marie Prineas): That's right.

0:14:39 - (Linda Habak): Which, you know, is budget and time.

0:14:42 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah. And I think you have to be, you know, commercial. Well, yes, yes, yes. And as long as you're still meeting the brief.

0:14:50 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely.

0:14:52 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Then everyone's happy.

0:14:54 - (Linda Habak): That's amazing. And. And do they. Through that process, did you educate them on the. The byproduct of the fact that this is going to tick a lot of boxes around sustainability?

0:15:06 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah, we did. We talked. We talked about it a bit. And I think they're really surprised at how well the project's been. Really surprised. Yeah.

0:15:13 - (Linda Habak): Really?

0:15:13 - (Eva Marie Prineas): That's amazing. And. And I think that the. That the success of that project isn't just its aesthetic outcome, which is stunning. Thank you. Amazing. But it is, because we did it. We used our problem solving skills in a way that was. Yeah. In a way that was able to incorporate all of the existing components of that building of that. Of that apartment and make it work. And I think that designers and architects are like, we're great problem solvers.

0:15:49 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely.

0:15:50 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So if anyone's going to be able to do something with some ugly marble and just transform it into something incredible, that's us. That's our skill. Even more than picking something brand new.

0:16:03 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. Well, actually, that's. That's an even more honed skill because it's easy to pick a beautiful slab of marble and throw it in to a, you know, a newly sort of decked out space, but to actually, it's much harder work to think about how to use existing pieces and then weave them into the new. So.

0:16:22 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah.

0:16:22 - (Linda Habak): And that is a skill that you do. So you and your team do so brilliantly. Well, so thank you.

0:16:28 - (Eva Marie Prineas): It's such a fabulous design challenge, though. Oh, it's to get a real ugly duckling and be able to say, no, we're gonna work with it, not against it. And I remember, like, years and years and years ago, one of the first projects we did, it was a little Red brick thing in Pinball. And. Yeah. And everyone was saying, you're gonna render it, aren't you? And I was saying, no, like, why would you render brick?

0:16:54 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Brick is, like, requires no maintenance. It's one of the best materials you can build from. Why would you render it and paint it and then, you know, create all this work and unnecessary maintenance? And. Yeah. My answer was always no. We're going to make the brick look good with everything else that we do.

0:17:11 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely.

0:17:12 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And we did.

0:17:13 - (Linda Habak): And you did that on a project in Gladesville, actually.

0:17:16 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Oh, yeah, very similar.

0:17:17 - (Linda Habak): That's the first time I actually learned about you. And your practice was through that house. Because I would drive past it all the time, and I was like, who is that? Who is that architect? And I looked you up. So it's. Well before I ever met you. And then we met. It's like, my God, you're the architect that did that.

0:17:34 - (Eva Marie Prineas): House. House. Amazing.

0:17:35 - (Linda Habak): And it's just a beautiful little red brick house that has been honored with a lovely, humble extension. But it's so beautifully detailed and it's so simple. The simplicity is the beauty of it, actually. So.

0:17:48 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Thank you.

0:17:49 - (Linda Habak): I just, you know, it really stays in my mind that most other people would have rendered that, rented it, added a whole box on it, you know, like, just take away all the character.

0:17:58 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Take away all the character, yeah.

0:18:00 - (Linda Habak): Oh, I love that. Yeah. So you talk about cultural and emotional longevity, not just carbon. Can you give me an example of a project that you've designed for that kind of permanence, where the space was meant to age and evolve with its inhabitants?

0:18:20 - (Eva Marie Prineas): What a beautiful question. I think, look, I think in terms of emotional. And what was the other thing that you said?

0:18:28 - (Linda Habak): So, cultural and emotional longevity. So not just looking at sustainability, but the whole.

0:18:34 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah, yeah. So I think in terms of cultural and emotional longevity, I think Fisherman's House is potentially a really good example of that one. Because when we started. When we started working on that project, I think our clients were considering demolishing the cottage. And. Yeah, they were. They were. And it was. It was the last remaining cottage on that little peninsula. And everyone else had, you know, demolished them and built these, you know, enormous houses.

0:19:11 - (Eva Marie Prineas): But the issue was that the cottage was nine meters below the street, so you had to actually access it down, like, a hundred stairs to get to it. And our clients were thinking about having children and they had aging parents. And it was this whole thing of, how is this. How are we ever going to be able to make this work without putting a house at street Level. And even the initial sketches that were done by our heritage consultant included just putting, you know, a two story house at street level.

0:19:43 - (Eva Marie Prineas): But the cottage just had so much incredible history and it was culturally significant because it was the last one. And so we started looking at ways that we could potentially add something at the rear of the cottage to connect from the street and then connect it down to the cottage. And then we moved the program around because our clients wanted to live on the water where the cottage was. So we opened up the cottage and kept the memory of the rooms through the steel framing, which is expressed, and then also through the floor. So you can read the memory of that, of that old cottage still within the original, within the current sort of container.

0:20:36 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And then at that time as well, we were really trying to meaningfully work out how we could meaningfully connect with country and design with country. So we found some incredible landscapers who only work with plants indigenous to the area. So we went on this bushwalk with them at Berry island and looked at, with the clients as well and looked at all the plants that would have come from that same ecology.

0:21:09 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And then they were the plants that they designed for all the hanging gardens and. Yeah, which sort of. And yeah, and we get these incredible. You know, you start seeing the fauna come back, whether it's like a paper wasp or a ringtail possum. Yeah, it's. You can see that the ecology's been regenerated and it's working again. So I think, yeah, that was a project that was. Went beyond beyond just retaining the heritage of the building. There were so many emotional and cultural factors that make it a special place to be.

0:21:49 - (Linda Habak): Feels really layered and thought through and there's so much depth there. When you're looking at heritage features, what do you. Do you have guiding principles on what you choose to retain versus remove. How do you decide that? Or is it project by project or is there a process that you go through?

0:22:13 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I don't think there's a particular process. It's quite intuitive, I think, and it really depends on the house itself. And that's the beauty about all of these projects that we work on. Even though there's been a number of terraces and there's been a number of federation houses, they're all a little bit different. Even just looking for brick, a brick that's going to tie in with, you know, an existing brick, is quite like it's different for every single project.

0:22:44 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So, yeah, I think we just have to sort of look at what we've got to work with and really get a sense of that existing building and then also understand what our clients needs are. And then it sort of all starts to the decisions and the questions all.

0:23:04 - (Linda Habak): Start coming through that process. So I want to touch on you. You recently went to Greece with your family. So can we talk about that experience for you? Because I know that was joyful obviously, but also I think cemented some ideas and some depth to your practice or reinforced why you do certain things. So can you take me through that? Because I just, I love that. Well, I love that connection to as you call it, place, but also to who you are as a person and culture and heritage.

0:23:42 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah, yeah, it's. It's funny because when you're away, when you're in Sydney, you sort of forget but then immediately when you're back it's. There's this incredible feeling of belonging. And I think the language has a big part to play in that to be able to have that language connection as well. But so my, my. When my father and his family left Greece just after second the second world.

0:24:09 - (Linda Habak): War.

0:24:11 - (Eva Marie Prineas): They like many families, like pretty much 90% of the island, they all left their houses there and they were just left empty thinking that at some point they would come back. And members of the family did come back during the 60s and you know there were a number of earthquakes on the island. So this is a little island between the Peloponnese and Crete called Kythera. And there's a really large Australian Catharian population, a lot in Brisbane and a lot in Sydney.

0:24:47 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And yeah, so dad's old house used to be my grandparents old house used to be like it was just a working farm, the subsistence farming they had, they were made of. The houses were made of the local stone called puri. And if you can imagine all the rooms were these sort of domed rooms and they have sort of 900 millimeter thick walls and really deep openings for the windows. So like they're sort of like these punctured openings. And my grandparents house is like this series of rooms and you know one would be the kitchen that had a little fireplace where and like beautiful built in stone seat where someone would sit next to the fire and tend to the fire. So it was all part of the sort of vernacular architecture.

0:25:40 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And then there'd be another room where they lived and then there'd be the bedrooms and then there'd be other rooms where they made the wine and so there's like a well where they used to put the grapes and then there's another room that has. Where they Used to keep the carcasses of meat that would just be hanging from big hooks in the stone ceilings. And they'd collect, you know, collect figs during summer and dry them out, and then that would be where they'd be stored so that they'd have food for winter. So just great stories.

0:26:14 - (Eva Marie Prineas): But this house was completely. Had sort of like large parts of it had fallen apart over time because no one was looking after it and there'd been earthquakes and I was actually in year, I think, in my. In fifth year at university when I suddenly just thought, we've never been there. And I think because we'd always go to Greece over Christmas when we had big holidays, we'd never actually been to the island because it was so windy and just difficult to get to.

0:26:45 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And so I finally decided to go over and have a look at this house. And then I ended up doing my final year thesis as a conservation plan for it.

0:26:55 - (Linda Habak): Did you?

0:26:56 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yes, I went over there and I measured it up and then I came home and I did. Did all the measured drawings and then did lots of research and took oral history from my grandmother and my arts and. Yeah. Recorded all of their sort of memories of this house. So, yeah, that was a really great. I'd also. I mean, I'd. I'd worked as a student and as a graduate in heritage practice, so I had an idea of how these things were put together, but this was an incredibly personal piece of work and.

0:27:37 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. Did you act on it? Did you actually renovate or reinstate the existing house?

0:27:46 - (Eva Marie Prineas): To a degree. So it's an ongoing project and it'll be something that my cousins and my children and their children will continue to work on. It's an absolute dream to win Lotto and just get it back working to an incredible farm that it was. Because what an amazing place to go and stay at.

0:28:07 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely.

0:28:08 - (Eva Marie Prineas): But I think going back there, what it makes you realize is. Yeah. That idea of this house coming from its place and all of these rocks that had just been completely like just piles of rocks were then rebuilt and these rooms were recreated and. Yeah. Just reinforced to me the importance of place and. And keeping things simple as well.

0:28:38 - (Linda Habak): Restraint.

0:28:39 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yes.

0:28:40 - (Linda Habak): And the beauty of restraint.

0:28:43 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yes.

0:28:43 - (Linda Habak): Which I think is what. I think it's innate in you in terms of how you think about how you approach architecture. It's about less rather than more.

0:28:53 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah. I think for me. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it.

0:28:59 - (Linda Habak): It's.

0:29:00 - (Eva Marie Prineas): It's not trend driven. It's very much about there's meaning behind it.

0:29:05 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:29:05 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah.

0:29:06 - (Linda Habak): Every decision you make.

0:29:07 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I love that.

0:29:08 - (Linda Habak): And, and I think for me, it's about value. What I see is that you, you have a lot of values and you, those values are in your life, but in your business too. And so that leads me to my next question, which is you're also a female led B Corp certified business. So for those who don't know what B Corp certification is, can you talk to me about that and why you chose to become B Corp certified?

0:29:36 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah. So being a B Corp, being a B corporation means that we meet the highest standards of social and environmental impact as a business. And the great thing about B Corp is it's not, it doesn't shy away from making profit. Making profit is fine, making money is fine. But do it in a really responsible way and look after your people, look after your community, look after the environment. All of those things are like the pillars of B Corp.

0:30:13 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So when I found out about it, I remember I was just starting to. I've always got a million ideas and, you know, we're always trying to do things here and there and do the right thing. And what if we try this? Or what if we can help people this way and. Or what if we do this in the practice? And I think when I found out about B Corp, I just thought, oh, that's kind of exactly how I want to run my business.

0:30:41 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And it took a little while for us to kind of decide that we were going to do this, but once we did, we realized that it wasn't, it wasn't very difficult. It was really just a matter of taking the things that we were already doing and structuring them a little bit and creating policies because we were doing all these things. But there was no sort of structure and there was no necessarily. There was, it was not necessarily we weren't accountable for what we were doing. And I think that the Big Horse framework gives you accountability.

0:31:16 - (Linda Habak): And how, how does it do that.

0:31:18 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So that you have to recertify? So it's not a matter of just getting, getting the badge. Yeah. So every three years there's recertification and every, every. It appears that every sort of three years, it gets harder and harder to get certification. So you have to keep improving your score.

0:31:36 - (Linda Habak): Oh, I see. So if you stay at the same level, you don't get recertified?

0:31:41 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Not necessarily. It depends what you're doing.

0:31:43 - (Linda Habak): Okay, so can you give me an example?

0:31:47 - (Eva Marie Prineas): What's an example? What's a good example?

0:31:50 - (Linda Habak): Or maybe in your case, what have you improved from one period to another?

0:31:57 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Look, I think you know, in a lot of ways it's to do with the way, like, we're quite. We're quite lucky because we don't create products. I think companies that create product are a lot harder. They get hit a lot harder by this because we don't actually. We're not directly creating something we're designing, but it is around the things that we. The materials that we specify. But I suspect that we're going to start having to quantify the carbon footprint of our projects quite soon, which I think is something that I'd love to be able to do and that would.

0:32:41 - (Linda Habak): Be a lot more work to do. Or do you already sort of have a semi process that you follow when you're specifying?

0:32:50 - (Eva Marie Prineas): No, we don't like. Not in that way. So we've got schedules and we've got certain materials that we know are better than others and we try and, you know, choose those. But as I said, you can do all of that, but the best thing that you can do is build less.

0:33:11 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I think it's a really hard idea to get for most people to get their head around, actually. So it's like, okay, build less. But what does that mean in practical terms? And because. Because we're also at a. In a time right now where we're being asked by the government to build more because we have a need for that. So how do we straddle this idea of we need more housing but build less?

0:33:45 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So I think we need to be. And look, I don't have the answers. I wish I did.

0:33:49 - (Linda Habak): No one does, actually, because we're not building enough.

0:33:52 - (Eva Marie Prineas): We're not building enough. But then we have a whole lot of empty, you know, we have a whole lot of empty office blocks. Can they be converted into apartment buildings? I know that there are architects approaching developers and showing them how it can be done and does it stack up in terms of numbers? And then there's other things, like, you know, maybe it's about being more strategic and thinking of ways that we can ensure that all these empty houses are actually being used.

0:34:29 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Like maybe, you know, a couple that are, you know, aging and living in their home with five bedrooms and it's just the two of them, just in case the grandchildren come over. Yeah, I don't know, maybe at some point someone should just say, look, you know, you're gonna pay more tax if you do that, or you get a tax or some sort of benefit if you just move into an apartment and let someone else have that house.

0:34:54 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I don't know, I don't have the solutions, but there's a lot of empty houses as well.

0:35:00 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. And you're right, there's a huge aging population at the moment. And so it's a challenge. It's going to be an interesting few years ahead. And it doesn't help that construction costs are high and it's diff. You know, whilst the government has improved approvals, it's still, it's not really converting yet. I don't know, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

0:35:23 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think that as architects, we need to be. Yeah, we, we've got, we've got, you know, these problem solving skills that we can actually think about these things and lobby governments and put these suggestions forward and like, there's some really, really good thinkers in our profession. So, like, I think we can be part of that. Exactly.

0:35:45 - (Linda Habak): And actually that's an interesting point because I think what, what I see, because we do a little, I mean, very boutique and very small property development, we do do some property development down south. We try and engage the architect quite early in our conversations because we're looking at how to approach a site and how to best utilize the site to get the best outcome for the housing required for that area.

0:36:11 - (Linda Habak): And so actually it's a team effort. And so there needs to be more conversations from everyone trying to deliver this. So it's engaging architects right from the get go. Very early on in that conversation, I want to talk about running a business. So what if. I mean, I have so many questions, but 20 years is an amazing, amazing achievement. What have you learned about yourself in running a business for that long?

0:36:44 - (Linda Habak): And have you had to unlearn anything in order to step into a leadership role, like you're leading a team? So, yeah.

0:36:54 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah, look, I've learned so many things. One of the, one of the biggest things I learned, so I've had, I've had a business coach for the same sort of. He's sort of like a business coach, someone that I see every month and we talk about business and we go through the books and we talk about things. And I think quite early on I realized. Not quite early on, not early on enough. I think he always says things because I think I'm the only architect that he has as a client.

0:37:27 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So he's not an architect, not in the industry. And that's what I love. He will just often just say something that is so obvious. And I've been obsessing about how to solve this problem and it's so Obvious. And I just think, well, of course, why wasn't I doing it like that? Because I think as architects, we have, like, very specific ways that we think business should happen and it's archaic in a lot of ways.

0:37:56 - (Eva Marie Prineas): So he'll just come from.

0:37:57 - (Linda Habak): Can you give me an example? I'm just curious about how, how you approach it. Because it's. Business is hard. It's. It's hard to run a business and make it profitable and you're, you're. There's a lot of competing agendas all the time. So I'm just curious about now.

0:38:15 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I'm. I absolutely cannot. But it happens all the time. Yeah, it happens all the time. Just little things.

0:38:20 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:38:21 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And. And I just think, oh, that's so obvious.

0:38:24 - (Linda Habak): But, but it's having fresh set of eyes that's not in it.

0:38:27 - (Eva Marie Prineas): That's not in it. And, and it's probably quite. Sometimes it's really annoying because he doesn't understand how our industry works and I think, you know, that's not like how it works. But then other times it's like, like this little gem and it might only be a really small problem that needs to be solved, but he has a completely fresh, to me, seeming like view of how it can be resolved. And I think that, yeah, it's important to have people that are in the industry that understand it, but equally someone from the outside can look in and that's when you realise that maybe, you know, some of the things that we've been doing aren't necessarily. It's not necessarily the right way to.

0:39:10 - (Linda Habak): Do things or the most efficient or most profitable or.

0:39:14 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Exactly, yeah.

0:39:16 - (Linda Habak): What point in the business or in the journey did you say to yourself, I actually need guidance and I need a coach or a mentor when I could afford it.

0:39:27 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah.

0:39:28 - (Linda Habak): Sad that we have to, like, because how, how successful would businesses be if you had, like, I don't know if there's a government program where you could just build in mentorship and coaching from the beginning. I think the chance of success is so much greater when you have that person or, you know, a system you can refer to and you're not just trying to work out every detail yourself.

0:39:53 - (Eva Marie Prineas): But I think that that's the. Is especially in small business. And I know with architecture and probably interiors as well, you start out on your own with one little project and you don't think it's a business, you just think you're designing something and then, you know, as things, as time goes on, you suddenly realize, oh, I've employed people. This is A business.

0:40:13 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, exactly.

0:40:14 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah. And when did that happen for you?

0:40:17 - (Linda Habak): What was that pivot point or the catalyst that took you from being. I'm just doing a project and I'm just designing something to. Now I have a business.

0:40:27 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Well, it was when I was pregnant with my first son, because that's when I realized I've got all these projects that I'm not going to be able to work on for a while, and some of them are under construction and some of them are going to need to be documented. And that's when I realized I can't just rely on a student here and there. I need to employ an architect. And at that point, that's when I thought, okay, this is.

0:40:52 - (Eva Marie Prineas): This is real.

0:40:52 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, yeah. And how did you find letting go? Did you struggle with relinquishing control?

0:41:02 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I found it really hard.

0:41:04 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:41:05 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I used to turn up to the office with the baby and everyone would say, what are you doing here? But I felt really like, oh, no, I need to be there. I need to be there. And then you realize that you do, but then you also don't. Yeah.

0:41:20 - (Linda Habak): And was it trust or was it that you're a control freak? What do you think was underlying all of that?

0:41:26 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I think a bit of everything. I think a bit of everything. Just that control of, like, you've sort of. I think I had my. I must have had my practice for maybe four years, and it was so. Like, I was so emotionally involved in it and with all the clients as well, so I was scared to let it go. Like, what if this didn't happen quite the right way? What if this didn't happen? And, like, for such a long time, every time a new person joined our team, I'd feel the need to completely curate the way that they signed off their emails or.

0:42:05 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And then I realized, no, they have a personality. They're allowed to be different to me. And you have. Sometimes you just have to let things go.

0:42:13 - (Linda Habak): Has that been the biggest lesson for you, do you think? Or what's been the biggest pain point over the years and you've just gone. I've learned now to let that go.

0:42:22 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah, I think it is. You have to realize that you can't control absolutely everything. Put good systems in place, make sure that everything's being done properly and that all our clients are being looked after, that everything's been done in a professional way, but you can't control absolutely everything. And even if you. Even if it was just me, I still couldn't control absolutely everything.

0:42:46 - (Linda Habak): That's right. Exactly. Exactly. And Looking back now on the 20 years, can you. What. What would you say to yourself 20 years ago now, with hindsight, if you could give her advice?

0:43:01 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Honestly, Honestly, just be yourself.

0:43:06 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, I love that. But I feel every interaction I've had with you, you're just so authentically you and just such a joy to be around all the time. Like, I really. You're amazing. And I love how you've approached architecture and how you approach. I feel like the architect is the person and the person is the architect. You're one in the same and it really. You can see it through the work. That's what I see.

0:43:37 - (Linda Habak): Karpen, we're coming to the very sad end of our conversation because it's so good and I. So many more questions, as always. Are you excited about the future of architecture?

0:43:50 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I am, I am, and I hope that. And, no, I am. I'm really excited and I. I want to see where. Yeah, it all goes with all the challenges that we're up against and all the new technology. Yeah, I'm really excited to see where it goes. And I think you have to be. You have to be excited.

0:44:14 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, absolutely. In complete contrast, are you worried about anything?

0:44:20 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Just the planet?

0:44:22 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely. Are you? Tell me, have you thought much about AI and how that's going to impact, or is it. Or have you integrated it? Will you have a policy around it?

0:44:33 - (Eva Marie Prineas): We haven't integrated it yet. We're all sort of playing with it. But, no, I would have to say that we are in very, very early stages of really understanding what it's capable of and how it's going to affect what we do.

0:44:52 - (Linda Habak): Are you curious?

0:44:54 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. It's just a time thing.

0:44:57 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:44:57 - (Eva Marie Prineas): But honestly, I think. I think, like, any change, we just have to. We have to accept that things are going to change, and then we need to make sure that we can move forward in, like, the most positive way possible.

0:45:12 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely, that's right. And it comes back to your point about. About, you know, impacting the planet and how does AI impact the planet? Because it. It does have an impact, an energy impact on the planet. Every time we ask it a question, it's, you know, using lots of water. I don't know exactly what the statistic is, but a lot. So, yeah, we have to be mindful of that. If you could whisper one piece of advice to every architect just starting their practice, what would it be?

0:46:32 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yeah, I mean. I mean, one of the things that I always, always, always say ad nauseam is the plan doesn't lie. The plan Just get the plan right. Get the plan right and the rest will come.

0:46:43 - (Linda Habak): Got it?

0:46:44 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Yep.

0:46:46 - (Linda Habak): And give me an example of like, what do you mean by that?

0:46:49 - (Eva Marie Prineas): What I mean is I think it comes back to thinking about the purpose and the place and making sure that the basics are right rather than looking at an image and trying to make that, that fit into what you have to work with.

0:47:12 - (Linda Habak): I think about that a lot from, you know, interior design. It's like, let's get the floor plan right. Because you can make anything look beautiful. It's easy to adorn something and make it look what's not easy. And some people do it better than others. But I think if the functionality doesn't work, it doesn't matter how beautiful it is, it has to function. So I think that's kind of the same idea as you're saying, get the plan right and then the rest unfolds.

0:47:39 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, as it goes.

0:47:41 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I've got another one though. That's better.

0:47:43 - (Linda Habak): Okay, go for it.

0:47:44 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I think that what I would say is for anyone starting out to just draw by hand.

0:47:53 - (Linda Habak): Oh, that's good advice.

0:47:56 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Make sure that you never ever stop drawing.

0:47:59 - (Linda Habak): Do you still draw everything by hand? Do you start that way like as instead always start that way.

0:48:05 - (Eva Marie Prineas): And I'm so surprised when the young graduates sort of show me ideas that are drafted. And I just think a sketch would have conveyed that in a much more beautiful way. And also I was talking to some students recently with another architect and we were saying to them how really the sketching, like you can have AI, you can have like amazing 3D computer programs at your fingertips. But ultimately, at the end of the day, if you're in the London Environment court and you're in a mediation and you've got the heritage person and the planner and your client, if you can sit there and do a really quick sketch at that second and get them over the line, that's going to make everything so much easier.

0:48:57 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Or if you're in a meeting with, I don't know, a group of people that need to make a decision quickly and you can explain that quickly through a hand sketch that is so much more valuable than, you know, a whole bunch of words and then having to go back and, you know, draft it up and like the. I don't, I do not think that the value of sketching has been replaced.

0:49:26 - (Linda Habak): I love that. And the reality is with all this technology around us, that we actually need to hold on to these hand crafted human skills.

0:49:36 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Exactly.

0:49:37 - (Linda Habak): So not just human connection, but that human ability coming from Someone who's terrible at drawing, but very creative.

0:49:44 - (Eva Marie Prineas): But keep practicing.

0:49:46 - (Linda Habak): I looked back the other day, actually, at some sketches I did three when I was learning because I studied design as an adult. I mean, I did it at school, but then came back to it, and I looked at my. My little 3D sketches, and I'm like, actually, I wasn't that. I'm not that bad.

0:50:00 - (Eva Marie Prineas): You do. You look back and you think it's because you're not doing it now.

0:50:03 - (Linda Habak): Exactly, because we're not doing it at all. I mean, I don't even really do the technical drawings anymore. I outsource that to other people in the team. I don't. Don't have the time to do it, which is sad, because actually, that's a lot of the problem solving happens there. In that moment when you're trying to resolve a space and a detachment. It's when you're doing it that you can resolve it. So our very last question, and it's our signature question that everyone gets asked. But what does Build Beautiful mean to you?

0:50:59 - (Eva Marie Prineas): To me, Build Beautiful means building with consideration, building from place, and building with care and restraint.

0:51:16 - (Linda Habak): It's perfect.

0:51:17 - (Eva Marie Prineas): I love it.

0:51:18 - (Linda Habak): Thank you, Eva Marie. It was so good. You're amazing.

0:51:22 - (Eva Marie Prineas): Oh, you're so kind. And thank you for having me, Sam.