0:00:00 - (Thomas Hamel): When I was very much about conquering the world. I'm seeing stores, you know, London, Paris, New York. I'm seeing this, I'm seeing this. I'm seeing furniture collections and fabric collections and all of that. Barbara Berry, and she just put her eyebrow up and said, okay, I look forward to hearing in five years how has this all evolved? And it evolved over the next year or two after that, that all of a sudden we were working on a furniture collection where I thought, goodness, I'm going to spread myself too thin.

0:00:30 - (Thomas Hamel): I realized I have to be careful, that I can't be that generous of myself continually.

0:00:41 - (Linda Habak): I'm Linda Habak and this is Build Beautiful. This isn't just a podcast about design. It's about the people behind the work and the truth behind the journey. The quiet pivots, the bold decisions, the failures no one sees, and the moments that change everything. Each episode, I sit down with architects, architects, designers, developers, artists and creative entrepreneurs, not to talk about success, but about what it takes to get there.

0:01:11 - (Linda Habak): The process, the doubt, the grit, the heart. If you believe in creating with meaning and living a life with intention, then you'll feel right at home here. Welcome to Build Beautiful, where design meets depth. We begin season two with a that moves as gracefully as the man himself. Thomas Hamill is one of those rare figures whose influence feels both global and deeply personal. Raised in Virginia, trained in New York and now long rooted in Sydney, his work carries the quiet resonance of someone who's listened deeply to both space and self.

0:01:57 - (Linda Habak): His studio, Thomas Hamill and Associates, is internationally recognised. But beyond the accolades, what defines Thomas is not scale, but soul. He has spent over three decades designing homes that are emotionally attuned, not just beautiful, but true. And now, through his mentorship program, he is shaping a new generation of designers to lead with the same integrity. In this episode, we explore the migrations that shape us across countries, creative chapters and evolving callings.

0:02:32 - (Linda Habak): We talk about the early pull of design, the people who helped open doors, and the moments that asked him to choose depth over expansion. We speak about editing, not just in aesthetics, but in ambition. About the invisible thread that runs through a life well lived. This is not a conversation about design trends. It's about legacy, built quietly but with great care. Welcome to season two of Build Beautiful, Thomas.

0:03:03 - (Thomas Hamel): Thank you, Linda. I'm blushing. That was extraordinary. What a wonderful description.

0:03:08 - (Linda Habak): So honoured to have you. You're launching our season two, which is very exciting. So for season one, our inaugural season, we had Meryl Hair open. She was the first episode, first guest.

0:03:21 - (Thomas Hamel): A great way to begin.

0:03:22 - (Linda Habak): A great way to begin, absolutely. But she mentioned you, and in that moment that she mentioned you, I thought that's it. I have to have Thomas. He has to launch season two, a passing of the baton, if you will. So I'm very excited to have you.

0:03:37 - (Thomas Hamel): Thank you.

0:03:38 - (Linda Habak): You have such a rich history, and it all started in Virginia in the south of America. And I'd love to go back there and understand what the influences are, because there's beautiful Georgian architecture, grand residences. How did that, or did it influence your pathway into design?

0:03:59 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes, well, absolutely, it did influence my, my vision on, on the world because I was a son of a Marine, so I grew up in military housing, but my mother was from New York orig my father was from Boston, so they had that northern aesthetic. But living in the south was intriguing, but being on the military base, not quite as inspiring as I could have been. So I used my head and my, my imagination to become the design influence, because I was always interested in design.

0:04:31 - (Thomas Hamel): So fortunately, there's extraordinary colonial cities because it was one of the first places that the British came to in the 1600s. So quite early and so near us, quite close, was a place called Colonial Williamsburg, which was this amazing city that was the capital of Virginia until 1780s, I think it was. And what was marvelous about it was that John D. Rockefeller had put enormous money into it in the 60s and renovated and restored this entire town.

0:05:02 - (Thomas Hamel): So it was a very realistic place to visit, even down to the soft furnishings and how things work. So I was mesmerized by that from a very young age. There's a wonderful building there called the Governor's palace, because it was the capital of the state, as I mentioned. So it was really fascinating to see how they would even, you know, do summer loose covers on furnishings. And here I am, this little kid noticing these things.

0:05:28 - (Thomas Hamel): God only knows how that happened, but I did. And it's interesting how it's stayed in my life, that whole concept of indoor outdoor living and, you know, the John Till nature of, you know, verandas and, you know, soft spaces and, and beautiful furniture and richly wax polished and all of those things that have stuck with.

0:05:49 - (Linda Habak): Me and those details. So you noticed at such a young age. Was anyone in your life a creative person?

0:05:55 - (Thomas Hamel): No, I have no idea where it came from, but my mother was always very nurturing of that and you know, six or seven and one day I said to her, I said, oh, but one of these days I'm going to have an apartment in New York, Paris and London at the same time, you know, and she was like, how do you even know who that where those places? But it's just always just been in my heart and soul.

0:06:15 - (Linda Habak): And so how did you move from Virginia to New York? Because you went to New York to study.

0:06:20 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

0:06:21 - (Linda Habak): So was that a seed that was planted because you read a magazine, or what was that transition point that you thought, this is the next stage of my life?

0:06:30 - (Thomas Hamel): Fortunately, my mother, being from New York, had family and friends up there, so it was always planted in my seed. And then we would take the summer holiday drives to Boston to see my grandparents of my father's side, and I could see the city over there. And I'd beg everyone to please let me go and just experience it for a minute. But typically we'd drive by, which. So I, I knew that it was, it was the, the apple that was in my eye.

0:06:56 - (Thomas Hamel): At the end of high school in Virginia, you know, you go to the counselor and they talked about, what would you like to do? And I said, I'm going to New York. And I remember the lady distinctly saying, why would you do that? We have all the best schools in the world right here. I was like, that's exactly why. I just need, I need concrete. I don't need green grass. I need that stimulation that I've been missing.

0:07:19 - (Thomas Hamel): You know, that's just been in my imagination all these years.

0:07:22 - (Linda Habak): Did you always know it was interior design?

0:07:25 - (Thomas Hamel): I did, yes. Yes. And because my father would travel for a year at a time, being in the military, and spend a lot of time in, in Southeast Asia and Japan. So one year while he was away, I was able to start this passion that I had begun of making dollhouses and miniature furniture. And so I had a china closet in my bedroom that I set up as rooms and had a ballroom. And I'd make the chandelier out of fish hooks with pearls and, you know, and I. My imagination always went wild with all of that. So we were very anxious when he was coming back, you know, a year away to meet the son.

0:08:00 - (Thomas Hamel): But he was extremely proud. And I used to think it was extraordinary that he would actually share it with his friends.

0:08:06 - (Linda Habak): Oh, that's so beautiful.

0:08:07 - (Thomas Hamel): So interiors were certainly always in my passion.

0:08:11 - (Linda Habak): And so you went to New York and you studied design there. So what was that period of your life like?

0:08:16 - (Thomas Hamel): It was eye opener times 10, because it was the mid-80s and New York was quite hot and big and all the huge nightclubs and all of that side of things was extraordinary. To be a 17 year old on his own that lives at the dormitories. And my bed actually looked at the Empire State Building. So it was quite an exciting time to be there. I was at the Fashion Institute of Technology, which was, you know, lots of fashion students, but also interior design as well.

0:08:46 - (Thomas Hamel): And so obviously they wanted all of us pretty young things in the clubs every night. So the free passes and the, you know, so it was so very hard, but I always stayed very true to myself that I was going to work hard but experience those things as well. So I was very disciplined. I could work, go out, come back to work. You know, I was able to regulate all of that. But what was very interesting is with the school and being in New York, I had this passion for history as well as contemporary things.

0:09:14 - (Thomas Hamel): So it was nice to have that. I found that the school was a little bit too contemporary in its approach. Everything was Bauhaus and, you know, streamline and all of that. But I've had a very standout professor who is called Stanley Barrows, who to this day is known as a very great interior design history aficionado. And he studied at Parsons and then in New York. So he was one of the first to really influence me and see that history is so important as part of the design education.

0:09:46 - (Thomas Hamel): And I use it as an example continually that, you know, Picasso started doing very old fashioned old school paintings and he had to have that education before he got to where he able to do that. And I went to a museum in Malaga this year and they literally had one of Picasso's first paintings next to one of his last ones. And it's amazing to see that evolution literally sitting next to each other. But I've always used as an example of how I feel people need to understand history before they can actually reinvent it and create something new.

0:10:19 - (Linda Habak): Your work is very much a balance of old and new. So do you think that was founded by that professor, that love for sort of weaving in history and elements that are maybe more traditional, but in a contemporary context as well?

0:10:34 - (Thomas Hamel): It absolutely planted the seed, yes. As the seed started to sprout after the two years in New York, which was extraordinary because I always still had Europe in my. I had been on a school trip a few years previously, so I knew what existed in London and Paris, So I felt like I needed to get back there. So after my two year degree, I was able to apply to a college in London to get my Bachelor of Fine Arts in Interior design there.

0:11:02 - (Thomas Hamel): And that certainly really, you know, started the sprouting of. Because I actually felt the scale of London was more for me that it wasn't so quite overwhelming and gritty. It had a finesse about it. No, a civilization to it. And you could just, you just knew that you could scratch any surface and there was incredible things, you know, hidden behind that. And as we'll talk about all these amazing full circle sort of people that have come into my life and how it's informed and influenced me along the way.

0:11:32 - (Thomas Hamel): And by chance, one of my professors in New York had written me a letter of introduction to Sir Hardy Amies, who at the time was the gentleman who made all of the clothes for Queen Elizabeth. I was able to be introduced and meet him and introduce extraordinary things to me. But in our discussions we talked about Australia for some reason and he mentioned, he said, oh, I have a very great friend in Sydney called Leslie Walford and I think that you should know of him. And so he wrote a letter of introduction and I started this correspondence with Leslie. At that point, Australia wasn't really on my map in my mind, but it was just such an intriguing thing. So when I was able to eventually arrive in Australia, 10 years after that, we were able to become friends in the city itself.

0:12:18 - (Linda Habak): Oh, that's what, what an amazing sort of connection and story, actually. And so how long were you in London for before you returned to New York?

0:12:28 - (Thomas Hamel): I was in London for just over two years. And it was again, it was a fascinating time because the proximity of everything in Europe, as you know, it was just so delightful. The professor would say, oh, there's these amazing stained glass windows in Berlin, you should see that. Or you should go to the antique market in Bruss, or you should go to Vienna. And so you could literally do that on a train. Yes, yes. And it was an amazing time. At that time, that US dollar was almost equal to the pound. So it was a very inexpensive time. So it was marvelous to have those experiences.

0:13:00 - (Thomas Hamel): But then at that time, then I also pushed. I didn't want to just become a classic interior designer. I still was intrigued by new and contemporary, but the mixture was always important. So as my thesis for my two year term there, I chose. It was a building on the river on the Thames called the Billingsgate Fish Market, which was an old Victorian building. And at the time my professor told me that Richard Rogers was doing it as an office building.

0:13:30 - (Thomas Hamel): And so I was able to get the plans and have a meeting at Sir Richard Rogers office, which was extraordinary. But then I thought, how do we make this contemporary? And having my experience of the nightclubs of New York. I decided that I was going to make this enormous building into a nightclub. And first I came up with the name Londinium, which was the old Roman name for London. So I've always been intrigued with mixing the old and the new.

0:13:56 - (Linda Habak): Yes. And I can. I mean, it's still so apparent through your whole body of work. When I look at it is this beautiful balance of old and new and materiality and texture and pattern and.

0:14:08 - (Thomas Hamel): And reverence to the past. I think that's an important thing.

0:14:11 - (Linda Habak): And do you think that is rooted in your upbringing in Virginia?

0:14:14 - (Thomas Hamel): I certainly think there is, because there is. It's that combination of. Of living with the past in a positive way. There's no need to disregard it or turn your back against it. It's actually very nice to embrace it.

0:14:27 - (Linda Habak): Beautiful. And so you land back in New York and you start working at Parish Hadley. Tell me about that time working for Parrish Hadley. And what did you have to give of yourself to that role and working in that environment? And what did you gain from it?

0:14:45 - (Thomas Hamel): Well, interesting. When I first got back to New York, I actually had two great sort of jobs in New York. The first one was for a lady called Bebe Winkler, who was. We'd met by chance and I feel like I've always been so fortunate with these meetings of people. And so literally I was working for a gentleman only for a few months because I wasn't as inspired by what he was doing. But I used to have to drive this lady, Bebe Winkler, to Long island because we had done show house rooms next to each other and hers was there and I was at this other gentleman's room and we just picked up this extraordinary dialogue and friendship in the car on an hour and a half each way going to Long island each weekend.

0:15:30 - (Thomas Hamel): And so by the end of the show house, I was working for her. And she was an extraordinary person because she was very much. She was focused on design and loved it. And she had some extraordinary clients, but she was very business driven at the same time. So I'm very. I feel very blessed and fortunate that I had her experience in my life because I learned it's not all just art for art's sake. Yeah, it's very important and extraordinary. One of most famous and amazing client was amazing B Gerald Cantor and his wife Iris.

0:16:03 - (Thomas Hamel): And they had amassed the largest collection of Rodin sculptures in the world. At one point they had 750 of them. Fascinating.

0:16:12 - (Linda Habak): Where did they store them?

0:16:12 - (Thomas Hamel): Fascinating people? Well, in the end, they gave away five or six hundred to every museum in the world to the Met and the LACMA and the Rodin Museum itself, and extraordinary people. And just to have that exposure.

0:16:28 - (Linda Habak): Can I just give some context? How old were you at this point that you were working for BB Winkle?

0:16:32 - (Thomas Hamel): Maybe 21 or 22.

0:16:34 - (Linda Habak): You are an old soul, Thomas Hamill. You really are. Because I think at 21 or 22. And how old would BB have been at that time? Maybe 50s.

0:16:44 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

0:16:44 - (Linda Habak): So this can. This beautiful connection that struck up between a 20. I remember what I was like at 21. I mean, it is extraordinary. And that's one of the first things when I met you, I want to say about 10 years ago now, is you strike me as this. You are so present. And I'll talk about that. I have a story about that, which I'll mention later. But you are an old soul. And it's so obvious through this conversation, just the beginning of this conversation.

0:17:11 - (Thomas Hamel): Yeah. Well, literally, as a child, I would rather sit and listen to my mother talking to her friends than being out playing. That's how I feel like I learned about people themselves.

0:17:21 - (Linda Habak): Do you have siblings?

0:17:22 - (Thomas Hamel): I have one brother.

0:17:23 - (Linda Habak): One brother. And is there a. Are you close in age or.

0:17:27 - (Thomas Hamel): He's two years younger, but we were very different. So again, it was in my DNA. Just very different people.

0:17:34 - (Linda Habak): Amazing.

0:17:36 - (Thomas Hamel): And then with Bibi, you know, she gave such stock to me that, you know, literally I had two assistants myself at 21, 22, and we did extraordinary projects, but it was that exposure to what the world offered and these great collectors and these great visionary people that had, you know, extraordinary things and passion.

0:17:57 - (Linda Habak): Can we stay with Bibi for a minute? Yes, because I love the business of design.

0:18:01 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

0:18:02 - (Linda Habak): What were the key things that you learned from her? Because I think one of the things that I know a lot of people who will listen to this podcast, many designers, architects, they not always struggle, but one of the big things that they're trying to focus on is building a strong business. So to have that exposure at 21, to have an insight into the business of design, what are the key things that you learn and that you've kept with you to build your own practice?

0:18:30 - (Thomas Hamel): I would immediately say it's organization and structure. It's got to be. Yes. No, you just can't, you know, think, oh, I'm going to design this, and I'll think about what it costs later. And everything has to be structured and organized, because as long as you give them all the information up front, most clients are. At least then, you know correctly, you know, if it's something that they're interested and want to proceed with or not.

0:18:55 - (Thomas Hamel): And then it's all about the efficiency of, you know, the descriptions, the details, the cost, how it's then invoiced, how it's, it's that structure that's so crucial, you know, and it's much more easy these days. There's programs that can assist with all that. At that point, there weren't, you know, we had to fill out very detailed worksheets for every single item and how the sofa's going to be piped and has it got, you know, blind stitching or. And it's, it's just setting up those systems. Fortunately, I've always had a very logistic focused mind, which is crucial.

0:19:28 - (Thomas Hamel): So I'm fortunate that I've got the creativity side of things, but that organizational side of things. While with Bibi, I met one of the people that has changed and influenced my entire life. And it's a hilarious story how we met. Bibi mentioned that this lady was coming in to see us who was a German industrialist who had a ped a terre in New York. She had seen our work in a magazine and wanted to talk to us. In walked this extraordinary person in a suit and tie with slicked back hair and red lips like that look that you just think of from many years ago. German severity, but yet hard edged.

0:20:07 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes. And then she ended up. She had steel mills around the world. It was her family's steel company that she was running. To have that masculinity and femininity combined was fascinating. And she loved bright reds and jewel colors and things. So literally the first day. And Bibi was a very feminine lady, so I think she was intrigued by that. But we're walking down the street and she said to me, thomas, she said, what do you put in your hair? Because at that point I used to slick back my hair when it was humid in New York in the summer days. She said, I need that because I don't have time or like washing my hair. I'd like some of your gel.

0:20:47 - (Thomas Hamel): What do you use? And so I explained that I used to buy this gel in London. And so then the following day I brought in a tin of it and wrapped in a ribbon and I had it delivered to her hotel at the time. And she called me immediately and said, when can we go to dinner?

0:21:03 - (Linda Habak): Oh, that's amazing.

0:21:05 - (Thomas Hamel): We became such extraordinary friends. And what she taught me, and I'll never forget it, is because she talked about that. She said, most people make the mistake of starting in the center and working their way around the circle, trying to experience the world. She said, that's what. That's silly. You know, you should start with the big exploration of the world and come down to where you want to be at the end of it, you know, in center of the circle, rather than going the other direction.

0:21:33 - (Thomas Hamel): And we remained friends even after I came to Australia. So in the end, because Bibi didn't even know it, but I got out of her that she actually had this extraordinary moated castle in the Netherlands. And then after that, she bought a castle in Scotland. And then after that, when I was able to assist her with an apartment in Singapore, and then she bought this 18th century palace in Potsdam that she was doing. So I was able to assist her with that.

0:21:56 - (Thomas Hamel): And then. And after she discovered the new world via me, she bought an island off the south coast of New Zealand that we ended up doing things for. So she's been visionary in my life. All from my bottle of hair gel in New York when I was 22.

0:22:11 - (Linda Habak): I was gonna tell this story later, but I'm gonna tell it now. My first experience with you, because it speaks to this point about you and it highlights it. I met you. I was a guest of our mutual friend Lorraine's. It was an art gallery event 10 years ago at. At Art House Gallery. And I met. I was introduced to you, and it was full of people. It was dark, it was loud. And you were completely present in that conversation.

0:22:41 - (Linda Habak): And it stayed with me because I thought, little old me, I mean, who am I? And you're Thomas Hamill. You're a design hero. And that, you know what they say, never meet your heroes, but in my case, I meet you, and you were completely present. And you were not just present in the conversation. And you could have easily been looking around. It was distracting. There were people everywhere.

0:23:03 - (Thomas Hamel): It's overwhelming. Those kind of functions.

0:23:05 - (Linda Habak): Things are overwhelming. And it was one of the first things that I had gone to at an art gallery of. And it was a long dinner and there's all sorts of things happening. But not only were you present with me, you were engaged in the conversation and asking me questions.

0:23:19 - (Thomas Hamel): Well, that's. I spend a lot of time asking questions, and I always apologize to new clients because I said, I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions, and hopefully you don't find it overwhelming. But that's how we get to know each other and how I get to know you, so I can create your interior.

0:23:34 - (Linda Habak): Not mine, not yours. So I just wanted to highlight that we'll tell that story later. But it's so. It's so relevant to you've. You've struck this beautiful friendship with this lady.

0:23:46 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

0:23:46 - (Linda Habak): Who is, you know, a boss.

0:23:48 - (Thomas Hamel): Exactly.

0:23:50 - (Linda Habak): But you connected with her. And that is exactly my experience with you 10 years ago. And so that's your superpower.

0:23:56 - (Thomas Hamel): Yeah, well. And I've been so fortunate with many experiences like that, but she was one of the highlights. I thought I should share that story.

0:24:03 - (Linda Habak): Incredible. Incredible. I feel like you should write a novel. Yes, I think you could write a novel.

0:24:08 - (Thomas Hamel): Well, fortunate, because my first year in New York, I didn't take or make any many notes and I realized, I thought, what did I do last year? Everything. But I don't remember it. So I've kept diaries since the middle of 80s since then. So I do. Luckily there is a documentation of all of the extraordinary experiences that I've had.

0:24:26 - (Linda Habak): And we'll continue to unfold some of these experiences.

0:24:30 - (Thomas Hamel): So, Bebe Winkler, yes, she was extraordinary. But one of my assistants had left us and because we did work extraordinary hours. So she went on to get this wonderful job at Parrish Hadley. And I was listening to her path and enjoying the changes in her life now that she was at Parrish Hadley, which I knew of them, obviously because they were so well regarded in New York as the, you know, the blue blood, you know, sort of special firm.

0:25:01 - (Thomas Hamel): But at the same time, they always nurtured other designers. It wasn't just about the egos of Mrs. Parish and Mr. Hadley, you know, they had other designers and they let them have a voice in the business, which was nice. So all of a sudden one day called out of the blue and she said, run, don't walk. They need somebody at Parrish Hadley today. They have this new job in Bermuda and please get here quick.

0:25:25 - (Thomas Hamel): And I did. And I was hired as the assistant to Brian McCarthy, who now has his own successful company in New York. And it was a turning point. It was extraordinary. It was very difficult to break my bond with Bibi because we were extremely close. But I did and it was worthwhile. And all of a sudden it started to teach me about doing more overseas and more projects, not just in New York itself, because as I said, I started with this job in Bermuda, which was extraordinary.

0:25:58 - (Thomas Hamel): And it was a mixture of bringing the best Georgian and English furniture to a tropical island and mixing it in a bohemian kind of way. It was fascinating. So it was a great project and. And it was extraordinary because Mrs. Parrish and Mr. Hadley were both with us then and to work with both of them, as, you know, most people just now, you just read about them and think, how did that truly happen? Mrs. Parrish was much more about keeping things more old school, but it was about beauty and quality of things, but then mixing it with baskets and with Auberger Trouvet and quilts and things. So to bring down the glamour and the grandeur of things, that was her sort of point of view.

0:26:44 - (Thomas Hamel): Whereas Albert Hadley was very much. And I saw myself in him as he was a very gentle soul from Nashville, Tennessee, who was very gracious and always, you know, a very much a Southern gentleman. So it was lovely to have him as a role model from an early age. But he brought a modernist approach to things. And that's what. I still find it so intriguing that Frisian, that you need the yin and the yang of the old school and the new things. And so he would always push the limits one of the summer, because Mrs. Parrish would go to Maine every summer to her holiday home.

0:27:25 - (Thomas Hamel): And he used that time to redo our lobby. And it was, I recall it was silver foil walls and yellow curtains and a 1960s lamp. It was quite something. And then I had the opportunity of being in the lobby when she walked in the first time and her eyes just went up and she says, this is ghastly. What are we? What has happened? So, but it, that's what that. I think that was the magic of Parish Hadley, that they were able to work together.

0:27:55 - (Thomas Hamel): In a way, the tension was brilliant and that's why you could just see these interiors that were fresh but yet old school at the same time. So I felt that was such an extraordinary experience. And then he being such a soft spoken gentleman, he would always be sent on the missions with the most difficult clients because everyone figured he's going to be the best way of softening the situation when there's an issue or, or making a big vision. So me being the, the youngest in the group, I was typically, you know, the one standing there writing the notes and being with him. So it was, it was a marvelous exposure yet again.

0:28:32 - (Linda Habak): I mean, I just feel like we're on these stepping stones of greatness that you've had the privilege of being able to, to learn very much so.

0:28:41 - (Thomas Hamel): And that's why I know that it's not as easy to have those occasions now for young and for people studying don't even have to be young, but just for anyone who's interested in design. So that's why I do try and share as much of my experience and interest with Anyone who's interested in listening. And it's so important. I just find, you know, it's. You can read a book and that's fine, but it's. It's those interactions and how people react with each other and how Albert used to get his way with the most demanding ladies on earth, you know, and who are all known for their style and that they were icons themselves.

0:29:18 - (Thomas Hamel): So how do you subtly, gently massage, massage, convey your ideas and actually get results?

0:29:27 - (Linda Habak): And do you think you've learned that lesson and you actually implement that yourself?

0:29:32 - (Thomas Hamel): Very much so, yes. And I don't. It wasn't an obvious learning. I don't remember as a day saying, oh, now I know how to do it. It was a very subliminal thing. But it's.

0:29:43 - (Linda Habak): It's always been exposure, isn't it?

0:29:45 - (Thomas Hamel): It's.

0:29:46 - (Linda Habak): It's so nuanced. So at what point I. I'm trying to get us to Sydney.

0:29:51 - (Thomas Hamel): It's a long journey.

0:29:52 - (Linda Habak): Very excited.

0:29:53 - (Thomas Hamel): There's a lot of stories along the way.

0:29:55 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely. And I don't want to rush the stories.

0:29:57 - (Thomas Hamel): So this next story will lead us to Sydney, but through an intriguing journey again. So Brian and I were at. There was a extraordinary antique store called Stair and Company on the corner of Madison Avenue. And they were having a Friday night soiree. And I was there and this lady was behind us and overheard us speaking, mentioning Mrs. Parrish. And it was literally like we were rock stars. And she was this groupie who had just met us, and we started a dialogue with her. It was fascinating. And she said, oh, I'm just a simple farmer's wife from California, but, you know, I've always been intrigued by Design.

0:30:37 - (Thomas Hamel): And Mrs. Parrish is my pinup and da, da, da, da, da. So Brian had to go off to something and I spent more time with her. And I said, by chance, are you here for the weekend? You know, I'm free on Saturday, you know, if you wanted to go and, you know, look at more showrooms or something. So we ended up having this great weekend, chatting to each other. On Monday morning, I went in with Brian to Mrs. Parish and said, this intriguing lady, it would be extraordinary if you could meet her.

0:31:04 - (Thomas Hamel): What do you think? And Mrs. Parrish wasn't always the softest, warmest, fuzziest person, but she was intrigued. So this lady came in whose. Her name was Carol Harris. And what we found out is that it was not only a little farmer, but she owned most of the beef in California in this extraordinary place called River Ranch. Boom. All of a sudden, Mrs. Parrish was flying on the large private jet to California and then getting on the smaller private jet to get to the ranch.

0:31:34 - (Linda Habak): This story started, yes, and this is all because. Took a minute to have a conversation, which is what you do.

0:31:40 - (Thomas Hamel): And then I pushed it further and spent the whole afternoon with her in New York. Intuition, it's just flowing. And they're not always those kind of successful things like that. It doesn't matter to me. But you get to learn new things about people. So the story chapter moves on. We started working for Mrs. Harris in California, and it was literally my first trip to California ever with Brian after that. And she was showing us lovely things in Los Angeles before we went up to the ranch.

0:32:10 - (Thomas Hamel): Later on, there's a great antique fair called the Biennale in Paris that was every two years, and it was considered the best in the world at the time. And so Brian and I were going to be there. We were going to go and see my. The German industrialist. I didn't mention her name, but at that point she was called Dr. Viola Holman. Later on she became the princess of Hohenzollern when we did the palace in Potsdam.

0:32:35 - (Thomas Hamel): But we were going to visit her and go to this antique fair. So at another gallery in Paris called B D Arrant, and all of a sudden came this Australian contingency, this gentleman called Martin Cook, who is a great antique dealer here in Sydney. And he was with Frank Grill, who was one of the great interior designers of Sydney at the time. We picked up a conversation and they invited me to dinner that night with them.

0:33:02 - (Thomas Hamel): And. And Martin has a great collector called David Roche from Adelaide. When David passed, they started the David Roche foundation. And it's a beautiful decorative arts museum in the center of Adelaide. So I met all of those that first night in Paris, and that was it. And we had a beautiful dinner and Martin told me of some other antique galleries that I didn't know. So Brian and I went and saw those the next day.

0:33:26 - (Thomas Hamel): And it became a nice education of that. Martin was on his way to New York, on the way back to Australia. I didn't know how those sort of around the world tickets worked at that point. But he was stopping by New York and we were able to have another evening together. And he said, why don't you come to Sydney, you know, Christmas time, you know, let's organize if you can come. So I was able to get 10 days to two weeks off, which was the full year, you know, holiday in the US and so I came that Chris. So that was 1990.

0:33:57 - (Thomas Hamel): And so Martin was an extraordinary. I literally, after two weeks I had to write 45 thank you notes because on the plane home I was just spinning, my head was spinning because, you know, at that point I'd met Malcolm and Lucy Turnbull, you know, before he was the Prime Minister and extraordinary people and interior design wise Frank Grill was here. And then I met Michael Love, who's become a great friend ever since.

0:34:22 - (Thomas Hamel): And my eyes were opened and I wrote back to all of my friends in New York and I said, it's London in the sun. I think this is the place. And Martin is certainly the most debonair, extraordinary person to, to spend time with. So I was hooked. But. And then you get back to New York and it was January, it was rainy, it was miserable cold and all of those things. And so we talked about, you know, potentially moving to Australia at some point. And I went to some of the Parish Hadley clients and they were gassed.

0:34:53 - (Thomas Hamel): How could you leave here for that? It didn't quite have the polished reputation that Australia has now. It was, it was intriguing to everyone but it felt like it was the stop on the train, you know, it wasn't, you know, going to the bright lights, but I certainly thought it was extraordinary. And so it took quite a while to get the immigration organized and the residency and things, but I was able to come maybe seven months later.

0:35:19 - (Linda Habak): Amazing.

0:35:20 - (Thomas Hamel): And once I arrived in Australia then we were like, well, now what are you going to do? I just left this extraordinary job in New York and what's next? And luckily, through Martin and his antique store, I, I met everyone who was, you know, of note in, in Sydney, you know, lady potters and lady porters and lady packers and it was, it was extraordinary for all of that, the who's who, the who's who. But, you know, then I was a little unknown identity at that point. I was 25, so. And I wasn't really ready to start my own business.

0:35:51 - (Thomas Hamel): But we talked about it and said, yes, well, why not? You know, what do you have to lose? And so we incorporated and Michael Love was an extraordinary friend, but it was just. He never, never offered to do a collaboration or anything until I started my own business. And then as soon as I did that, he actually did and it was all about that thing that I feel like I brought to Australia and that was required is that service and that turnkey service. And he had been asked to do that for the first time and didn't quite know what that all mean.

0:36:25 - (Thomas Hamel): Filling the fridge and buying the candles and the towels and doing all of that. So he brought me in on this project. It was almost like him putting his arms around me and giving me the gravitas. That was somebody in Sydney that was respected for that. And it went from there.

0:36:42 - (Linda Habak): That's amazing because, I mean, really, that is Thomas Hamill and Associates. It is a turnkey service.

0:36:49 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

0:36:50 - (Linda Habak): And so you were able to bring all that experience that you'd had working in New York here and almost said, I mean, it's an incredible offering. So how was it received and how did that first project go? And then. Then. Was that essentially the foundation of your business moving forward?

0:37:11 - (Thomas Hamel): It was one of them for sure, and it was very well received. It was a very special person called Paul Ramsey, and it was an apartment in the city, and he loved beautiful things and living that way. But how do you start and where do you start? And so Michael and I spent a lot of time, and it was wonderful because we could find special objects. And it was about trying to create a story for him, which we always try to do for every client.

0:37:35 - (Thomas Hamel): And it was successful. And at the same time, the termals at that time were living in Paddington and planning eventually to move into a waterfront house in Point Piper, which, funny enough, they just invited me. It was 30 years ago this year that we. We did the house for them there. And it's so nice to still be a part of, you know, people's lives and history. But the business just kept going on that respect.

0:38:01 - (Thomas Hamel): And then what happened is, all of a sudden Melbourne came into it. And so there was a couple of them. They. It's funny, funny that right now they all sort of claim I was the first Melbournian, and I just smile at all of them. Yes. I think the first one was actually a beautiful lady called Margaret Darling, and she had an apartment in very, very old school proper. And I was able to help her with a renovation in the main road.

0:38:29 - (Thomas Hamel): But besides that, a couple of others had also reached out to me, and I think I was able to. To be accepted in Melbourne because I wasn't, you know, a true New South Wales person, you know, so it was.

0:38:41 - (Linda Habak): So that rivalry is true big time, but in.

0:38:45 - (Thomas Hamel): But in a nice way, it makes me smile. And I think I love being between both cities. I think it's so special. But that. That was a whole nother chapter because the interiors and the homes are very different between the two cities. And in Melbourne, it's very much about the garden and entertaining at home and scale. It's so nice to see 3 and 4 met ceilings versus 2.4 to 2.7. You know, it's. It's just a whole nother lifestyle.

0:39:11 - (Linda Habak): So when you did come to Sydney and to Australia, were there any frustrations? Because we're. We were such a small market, at least back then.

0:39:20 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

0:39:20 - (Linda Habak): Certainly different now.

0:39:21 - (Thomas Hamel): Yeah, it was. It was certainly a culture shock in many ways. Besides everyone being charming and nice. It was New Yorker at that time, you know, was bigger, better. Yes. I remember we've got a new project and you'd always just calculate that it was US$10,000 a window for window treatments, you know, And I remember coming here, I mentioned the word 10,000, and that was for the entire budget, so it was a treat. But at the same time, I did love being here. And there's an appreciation that Australian clients have that I've always found very refreshing.

0:39:57 - (Thomas Hamel): And people are interested and intriguing. And now I know that literally, because I find Australians are the most curious on ear. Literally. You know, the showrooms in New York or London or Los Angeles don't change, you know, every couple of years, but yet we've been there three times and we're always looking for the next thing because we are so used to, you know, new things and being stimulated.

0:40:22 - (Linda Habak): That's right. And I think that's just by nature of being so far away. So we have to open our minds and have that curiosity.

0:40:29 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes, well. And we make a great deal of effort to do it. It's refreshing.

0:40:33 - (Linda Habak): So I want to go back and sort of talk about this old world and new world because you have said that you feel like you're a bridge between the two. So that thread, it feels like it runs through all of your work. When you're working on a project, is there a formula that you follow or is it an intuition? How do you marry those. Those two forms of thinking so beautifully?

0:40:58 - (Thomas Hamel): I typically start with, as I mentioned, lots of questions and trying to delve into a person's appreciation, their mind, what. What they would like the end results to be. Because it's very much, you know, I say to them, you're putting on your clothes, not mine. You know, I want you to feel very comfortable in this environment when it's completed. And at the same time, especially through Albert Hadley, architecture has to speak and, you know, it's got to be appropriate to the interiors and vi versa.

0:41:29 - (Thomas Hamel): They have to work together in some way. It's very important. So I'm very much informed by what it is. Then once you get that established, then you make the twists. There's an extraordinary gentleman called John Schaeffer, who I met very early on, and he was a great collector of everything. And it was. Worked a lot with Martin. And so I used to just go with on Saturdays and we just move paintings around. And at that point, he had this extraordinary collection of Rupert Bunnies and all of this wonderful Victorian art. And he just purchased a great Victorian Gothic house called Rona in Bellevue Hill.

0:42:08 - (Thomas Hamel): And he didn't understand or have any inkling about interior design or decoration. But I knew that becoming friend. And I spent a lot of time building confidence with clients and their confidence. Yes, it's very important.

0:42:24 - (Linda Habak): And how do you do that? Is that just by. Through education?

0:42:27 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes, and patience and discussion and just sort of understanding and that. It took quite a while with him because he was just about buying objects, but he didn't know how to put all those objects together. And so through my New Year connections, I was able to show him these beautiful Gothic rugs, you know, antique rugs, Victorian rugs that you could find in New York, and beautiful furniture. But then at the same point, I said to him, you've got to put some contemporary things in there. You can't just have it as an homage to the Victorian era. You know, it doesn't work, you know, to have. You need that.

0:43:03 - (Thomas Hamel): And as an example, you know, I was just at Chatsworth recently in Northern England, and it's extraordinary how they have this incredible collection of antiques, but they embrace contemporary art and they mix it. And so I spend a lot of time talking with him about that, and I do that with other people as well. That it's nice to have one or two old souls in a room, but then it's got to have the twist.

0:43:26 - (Linda Habak): It needs to be dynamic in a way.

0:43:27 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes. And appropriate for now.

0:43:30 - (Linda Habak): You said something beautiful. We had a call last week and you said, I live for being in other people's heads. I think that was the words that you used, and I love that. Can we just expand on that? Because, I mean, we've touched on it. But what did you mean when you said that?

0:43:45 - (Thomas Hamel): That's interesting in a way, it's almost. Rather than having my own points of view, I actually try and emphasize their points of view. And so. So I find that that's the best way. And I like the mixed in, bringing people together that have like minds. I was eventually able to introduce my German industrialist to John Schaeffer, and they became fast friends and went to the antique fairs in Maastricht together.

0:44:10 - (Thomas Hamel): So that gives me pleasure in being able to Be a part of someone's life. And I think that's how I can have so many points of view that are different as well. So each person has this whole. And I quite appreciate and enjoy bringing it out of them and having it. So it becomes a part of my psyche as well.

0:44:33 - (Linda Habak): I'm really interested in this because working with lots of clients, it can often. I often say your cup has to be full to be able to give to them and to absorb what they need and their needs. How do you balance that? Because you are so present. Present when you're with someone, whether it's, you know, that's been my experience with you. So how do you ensure your cup is full so that you can be completely present with your client?

0:45:00 - (Linda Habak): What is that magic touch that you have? Like, what are you doing?

0:45:05 - (Thomas Hamel): It takes a lot out of me. So I do need that recharge time where I have to have my own sort of day of recharge. And I'm fortunate enough to have this beautiful garden now that I can spend time in for that. But. But it's important to. I'm very much a generous giver.

0:45:23 - (Linda Habak): Yes, you are.

0:45:25 - (Thomas Hamel): It's always been. But I enjoy it.

0:45:28 - (Linda Habak): Have you ever sort of worked with a client? I guess I'd like to understand if you've ever had a challenging client in that perhaps you don't like the aesthetic or how have you dealt with a situation that perhaps is grading against you in the wrong way?

0:45:44 - (Thomas Hamel): Have you.

0:45:44 - (Linda Habak): You had that situation and how have you dealt with it?

0:45:47 - (Thomas Hamel): It happens, unfortunately, because as I've just been saying, I give. So there's times that I've given too much. And, you know, some people don't want that, and they don't want their home to be that. I don't know what they exactly want, but they don't want to go to that level and layers and details. And it's frustrating for me, you know, so some clients, we can get to a certain stage and then that's fine. And they're not the ones that I'll be corresponding with 20 and 30 years later, like, of the ones that I do.

0:46:18 - (Thomas Hamel): And then obviously there are the ones that are too difficult to continue with. The only breaking point that I have is if they're sort of awful or rude to my team, because those are my babies. And that's the breaking point. You know, that that doesn't work. So unfortunately, it doesn't happen very often.

0:46:36 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. It strikes me that you're such a gentle person that I can't imagine it would happen often, but life is life.

0:46:44 - (Thomas Hamel): And it does take a lot out of me because.

0:46:46 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, I was going to say.

0:46:47 - (Thomas Hamel): Do you it take it personally? Yes, of course. Yeah.

0:46:51 - (Linda Habak): I mean, we're human, right? But I guess also, being in practice for so many years, you also have to. I imagine you have to learn to have a sense of decompartmentalization, maybe, or just because often it's not about you or I and it's a reflection of the person. But that can be challenging because we're all about people.

0:47:11 - (Thomas Hamel): Exactly.

0:47:11 - (Linda Habak): And so making sure they're happy is.

0:47:14 - (Thomas Hamel): Our purpose in life. That's what, as I've heard other guests, guests that you've spoken with say to get those happy messages, to get the thank yous, to get the pictures and say, look at what you've done for us. That's what we get up for in the morning.

0:47:29 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely. It is exactly why we do it. How do you know when a space is just right? When you're curating a space, how do you know you've got it just right? How far do you push the envelope? At what point do you go, enough is enough. It's perfect. Perfect. Is it ever perfect?

0:47:46 - (Thomas Hamel): That's what I was just going to say. It's not easy because my relationships go on forever. So something can be just right one day, and then three days or three years later it's not. And so I want things to evolve. And I'm always saying to clients, let's move the artworks around because you stop looking at things. So that's why I don't like a just right, because then you don't actually appreciate it or look at it anymore.

0:48:11 - (Thomas Hamel): I want things to continue to evolve. Then it reaches the point, though, that then they get twofold. So that's. So then I go and I sneak things in the drawers, and then when I come back, the things are snuck out of the drawers, and then they go back in the drawers. I've got a few clients where that's our game, which is fun.

0:48:31 - (Linda Habak): I mean, that speaks a lot to your importance of relationship. Because the fact that you're still in their lives three months, three years, ten years later, three decades later, and that there's this relationship. You're there as part of their being, as opposed to, I offer a service, I do a service, I close that door and I move on. It's a really different way of operating, which I think. I don't know many people that.

0:49:00 - (Thomas Hamel): No, it's. No. And it started from day one, when I talked about the service. I'VE certainly seen, over my three decades here, the evolution of service amongst many other designers that didn't exist. And it's. It's become, you know, it's important now that that's included.

0:49:17 - (Linda Habak): Well, it's your DNA, and it's actually what makes Thomas Hamill and Associates very much so, really. The. The.

0:49:23 - (Thomas Hamel): And then I've tried very hard with my team to instill that. So it's not just me that's offering that, you know, that service and that dedication and that interest, you know, everyone. We're all about developing, you know, relationships.

0:49:36 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. I want to jump over to your book, which you published in 2010, which I have right here.

0:49:44 - (Thomas Hamel): Very much time for another one.

0:49:45 - (Linda Habak): But so I think it's still very relevant. And, you know, I studied it like I did Meryl Hair's book. I want to talk about the book because I'd like to understand. And the book is called Residence. What was the vision at the time of doing the book? And there's two things I want to unpack is one, what was the vision for the book and how did it come about? But then I also want to talk about. About what was your vision for the business and what you saw that Thomas Hamill and his associates could be.

0:50:20 - (Linda Habak): Because I know there was this tension play between conquering the world versus, to use your word, sticking to your knitting. And I'd love to kind of talk about those two sides of that coin because I think there's something really interesting and special in the way you've chosen to grow and build your business, because there are lots. You would have had lots of opportunities to do lots of things. So can we start there?

0:50:47 - (Thomas Hamel): It's a big subject, but a very special one. It literally started with a great friend called Robin Holt, who had been editor of Vogue Living, and then she'd moved overseas and she was working for Conde Nast in Russia and in the UK after that. And she came back to Australia and she said, I'm here and I want to. To do new and interesting things. I'd like to give you a couple days a week. What could we do?

0:51:14 - (Thomas Hamel): And I said, well, it's time to think of a book. And who better to have the beginnings start with would be. Would be you, Robin. So we started that journey and before, certainly, as I said, It's 15 years old now, so I was still. The business was still in its infancy a bit, but we did have enough beautiful projects at that point to showcase. So we went about finding the right photographer. And the words were the most Difficult part, because I truly wanted the book to be my story and me speaking. But obviously it couldn't be me writing it.

0:51:50 - (Thomas Hamel): So it took three authors and we found a very special lady who I think did a brilliant job. And she speaks from my heart with her words in such a clever way. So I still enjoy reading back. And because each chapter was about that journey with that client. And the stories, the one we were in Melbourne, you know, and the little baby could only sleep on the tram tracks when we were driving. So we'd drive around Melbourne, you know, and just all those stories that I love keeping alive in my mind and in the clients minds.

0:52:24 - (Thomas Hamel): It was quite one of the first. Obviously very few Australian design books in the world at that time that, you know, that reached the world. So we had to push ourselves to. So we had launches in Los Angeles, New York and London. And I was able to use all of the great friends that I had built up over the time in the network to have these beautiful venues. And we sent the books ourselves and did a lot of the work ourselves. But it was such a great time to rekindle all of the friendships that I had around the world. Because what had developed here, which was fascinating. Is that most people, foreigners, when they come to see Sydney Martin and I were quite high on the list of Please call.

0:53:08 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes. And so I had the most extraordinary experiences like that. That, you know, Barbara Barry, you know, I sat next to at a dinner from Los Angeles. And John Saladino, who literally was in the floor above Parish Hadley in New York. But I was always too scared to talk to him in the lift. All of a sudden I was touring him around in Melbourne. And then being invited to his home in Connecticut and later in Montecito and then in London, you know, to have David Hicks that we took out to breakfast and to dinners.

0:53:36 - (Thomas Hamel): And then Jane Churchill and Nina Campbell and all these people that. So I think I actually met more people living in Sydney than I would have in New York and be able to develop these friendships. So it was sort of like the perfect time to celebrate all of those by having them in London and New York with me and doing.

0:53:55 - (Linda Habak): For the launch of the book.

0:53:56 - (Thomas Hamel): For the launches, yeah. To your question about what vision I had for the book and for my future. I must say, at that point I was very much about conquering the world. Like we all go through that stage. And it was a dinner in Los Angeles with Barbara Berry. And she asked everyone at the table to say what they saw for themselves in five years time. And came to me And I thought, well, I'm seeing stores, London, Paris, New York.

0:54:25 - (Thomas Hamel): I'm seeing this, I'm seeing this. I'm seeing furniture collections and fabric collection collections and all of that. And she just put her eyebrow up and said, okay, I look forward to hearing in five years, how has this all evolved. And it evolved over the next year or two after that, that all of a sudden we were working on a furniture collection where I thought, goodness, I'm going to spread myself too thin. You know, I'm this personal person. I want to, you know, because then I would go to these showroom events and I would. I would try and give me to everyone, and that's impossible.

0:54:57 - (Thomas Hamel): So I realized that I have to be careful, that I can't be that generous of myself continually. That.

0:55:05 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, well, something has to give, doesn't it?

0:55:07 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes, exactly.

0:55:08 - (Linda Habak): You have to decide what is it that lights you up.

0:55:10 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

0:55:11 - (Linda Habak): But I love the line that you said, you know, stick to your knitting.

0:55:14 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

0:55:15 - (Linda Habak): I was like, I love that. Like, that's a quotable stick to your knitting. I hadn't ever heard it before, but I've really pondered it since our last conversation. And I think for me, it's because it's easy to want to grow. I'm an ambitious person. I constantly want. I think it's an easy choice to want to, especially off the back of the book, to want to have.

0:55:36 - (Thomas Hamel): Take over everything, take over the world. Yes.

0:55:39 - (Linda Habak): And so I think it's a much harder decision to actually decide what is my core value, what is my core strength. And then I'm going to stay in this lane because something has to. There's a trait. There's always a trade off.

0:55:54 - (Thomas Hamel): Very much. Yeah.

0:55:55 - (Linda Habak): And so I guess I would like to understand what was that thinking at that point that you just thought, yes, you'll spread yourself too thin. But was it that you just thought, that's not my wheelhouse. I want to really focus on delivering these incredible experiences because they're not just. It's not a service, it's an experience.

0:56:14 - (Thomas Hamel): No, absolutely.

0:56:14 - (Linda Habak): It's a total experience.

0:56:16 - (Thomas Hamel): I call it a journey.

0:56:17 - (Linda Habak): A journey, yes.

0:56:18 - (Thomas Hamel): And it's very part of the, you know, everyone's like, when can we go overseas? Where can we do this? Where can we spend time together? That makes me smile. But at the time, you know, I was spending a lot of time with Martin Lawrence Ballard, who's a great friend in Los Angeles, and then with seeing what Barbara had created of her business, and I saw that that is a potential for business. But it's It's a little bit more. They're selling this vision in an anonymous kind of way. It's not as personal as.

0:56:45 - (Thomas Hamel): As I typically like to be. So I just decided that, no, that's not what I need to do. Let's focus on these extraordinary jobs and these extraordinary clients. They continue to give me amazing jobs and feedback. And the global had come from all these Australian clients. All of my overseas jobs are for Australians or someone with a very strong Australian connection. So I was able to do my work in Asia and in America and all around Europe for Australians. And.

0:57:14 - (Thomas Hamel): And I love that. And I thought that's what I'm gonna stick to and be strong.

0:57:18 - (Linda Habak): You've really carved out that niche. That's what you're known for. But it's so lovely and refreshing to hear that you chose depth over scale. Essentially, I want to move on to mentorship. Cause, I mean, you've talked a bit. You've mentioned all these incredible people that have touched you over the years through your journey, and I know that you now give back and you have a mentorship program. When did this idea of the mentorship program program start, and why did you decide to introduce it?

0:57:50 - (Thomas Hamel): We've always worked with the schools to have people in our offices from the schools, you know, because I just think the exposure is so important. You know, literally, they don't teach anything about fabrics in any design courses, you know, and it's just so crucial.

0:58:04 - (Linda Habak): And you might get one lesson.

0:58:06 - (Thomas Hamel): It's. Yeah, it's very sad. And I literally, in New York, before my job with Bibi, I ironed samples in a showroom, just like every other designer should do, because that's how you learn. So I always have people in our library. I think that's important. But I thought, well, let's take it to the next step. And so, of course, the problem is then the poor things, they're in the library and they don't get to hear any of the interactions or the other things that are part of, you know, this big picture, that's being an interior designer.

0:58:35 - (Thomas Hamel): So we started the. So it was probably about five years ago we started it. And of course, the first year, of course, there were too many amazing sort of people. So they. They keep me out of the selection until the very end because they know I'll just say, come all.

0:58:51 - (Linda Habak): Loving and generous.

0:58:52 - (Thomas Hamel): Yeah. So, but even in the first year, I. I ended up saying, let's have two. So they're. And they're both very special people. And it's been wonderful to see Them spend a couple of years with us in the office, and then they've gone on and they're actually working for other Sydney interior designers. And I've heard great congratulations from those designers that of what we were able to expose these gentlemen to.

0:59:15 - (Linda Habak): It's incredible. It's really giving back, isn't it? In many ways, it's your way of giving back. Do many stay on with you?

0:59:24 - (Thomas Hamel): Typically they start that way, but then at the same time, it's like having children. It must be so difficult to actually sort of say that they need to learn, you know, something else as well. Absolutely. But it's. It's a big family tree in Sydney of all of the designers that have worked with us. That makes me very proud.

0:59:43 - (Linda Habak): It's a beautiful community too, actually. And I had a beautiful junior designer who worked with me for about a year, and she went off to squalache, and she's doing great things there, and it's really nice to kind of see them grow. And it's an important part of the cycle of.

1:00:02 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

1:00:04 - (Linda Habak): So let's talk about exposure. How does one educate themselves? Because it is. I studied as an adult. I went to a private college. I studied design. We did maybe two lessons on history. It's just not enough. So what would your recommendation be for someone who does want to extend their repertoire, extend their knowledge? What is the best way to do that for designers or architects or. Or just design aficionados?

1:00:32 - (Thomas Hamel): It's so much more easy now in terms of. With social media, because there are some incredible Instagram accounts, especially that people, most of them are based in New York or London, that actually do talk about all the famous interiors and the designers and the parties that they gave and all of those things. So it'd be nice. I should actually put together a list of those amazing Instagram sites that are, you know that. Because they do have extraordinary stories on them. And that's the best way of learning.

1:01:02 - (Linda Habak): Because how do you learn? And also, I think, you know, I'm not an expert at all in antiques. I have very little knowledge in antiques. How do you know you're looking at a quality piece?

1:01:13 - (Thomas Hamel): Another chapter. Exactly.

1:01:14 - (Linda Habak): Or, you know, a vintage piece. And I think we have some great people in Sydney who have vintage stores or antique stores. You shy away from that because it's so limited. The knowledge is limited. Whereas your work is so rich with that. It's so layered. How do we educate ourselves? And I would love that Instagram list, and I'll share it with everybody through Instagram to do. But yeah. How do we educate ourselves? How do we learn and extend our repertoire?

1:01:43 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes, it's tricky. And then there are platforms now, like first dibs and things to learn from. But literally I say to my team so often, you can't just buy something from a picture. And it's got to be a picture picture in a room or live, because these sort of deceiving photographs, you know, and it's happened to all of us. You think you're buying a bars this big and it comes this big, you know, it's just. So I tell them continually to pull out the tape measure and just actually make sure that this is what. What they're getting.

1:02:12 - (Linda Habak): I heard you say that and I've said that to my team. We've got to pull out the tape measure, check, measure everything.

1:02:19 - (Thomas Hamel): No, it happened recently. A client was looking at this extraordinary painting in know and it was advertised and we all said it's beautiful and all that. I went to the gallery to look at it. It was literally a postage stamp for many tens of thousands of dollars. So you have to be so careful. Measures are very important. But back to your question about how do you learn it is just looking in exposure. I don't. There's no black and white things. Nobody wants to sit and read textbooks, you know, and understand it all. So it's. It's exposure, pleasure in seeing things.

1:02:52 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

1:02:52 - (Linda Habak): And then on your travels, how do you. But if someone was going to New York or London, what would they be looking for in terms of places to go to? I often ask questions.

1:03:03 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

1:03:03 - (Linda Habak): And I'll send messages to people on Instagram and say you were just.

1:03:07 - (Thomas Hamel): Exactly.

1:03:07 - (Linda Habak): Can you give me a list of where you went and what the, you know, what the hit list is? And that's for me been the best way to kind of extend myself and.

1:03:16 - (Thomas Hamel): I spend a whole nother hat that I wears. Information Bureau. But I do it with pleasure because both the clients and friends and colleagues, you know, I'm always giving lists of what to do, but makes me know that I've got to stay current and up to date as well because it's. It changes so much. I haven't spent as much time in New York in the past couple of years, so I'm. I'm losing my. The finger on the pulse of New York.

1:03:43 - (Linda Habak): I think you're in LA a lot.

1:03:44 - (Thomas Hamel): Yes.

1:03:44 - (Linda Habak): Is there a marked difference between LA and New York?

1:03:47 - (Thomas Hamel): Very much so, yes. But I much prefer to bring clients, Australian clients to LA because if the showrooms relate to our homes here, it's light and it's open and all of that. And they have indoor trees and they feel. Whereas everything New York's on the 17th floor crammed into a showroom. It doesn't relate to our life as much so. And it's so. It is very much a part of my journey to bring clients to Losing Angeles and San Francisco sometimes.

1:04:16 - (Linda Habak): We're coming to the end of our beautiful conversation. I have some reflection questions I'd like to ask you.

1:04:21 - (Thomas Hamel): Okay.

1:04:21 - (Linda Habak): And I could honestly, I think we have to do a part two.

1:04:24 - (Thomas Hamel): There's just still so much to talk about. Encyclopedia, you're amazing.

1:04:29 - (Linda Habak): When you think about the next chapter, what excites you?

1:04:32 - (Thomas Hamel): What's really exciting to me is that now I've got employees who've been with me 10, 15, 20 years. And I just think that's so marvelous. It makes me so, so proud and. But at the same time, you know, always still nurturing the younger ones as well. But I feel like that I'm leaving a legacy of various educated, interested people that can continue what we do.

1:04:57 - (Linda Habak): What does succession planning look like for you? Are you ever going to retire?

1:05:01 - (Thomas Hamel): No. No. To do what? To do what exactly? We have the best life as it is. We're shopping and talking and spending time with people and just enjoying the quality of life. So I certainly don't see retiring. Obviously, it can be a little bit more selective with the projects, but then travel is just so innate to me and very important part of it. And just keep nurturing the team. I'm there for them. That's where I want to remain.

1:05:31 - (Linda Habak): What do you hope people will remember about the essence of Thomas Hamill and Associates? And what do you want to be known known for?

1:05:39 - (Thomas Hamel): From the days of Parrish Hadley, I learned that, you know, to try and avoid gimmicks and. And the trends. And unfortunately, that's. We're inundated by that now because that's what everyone's got, an Instagram moment. And, you know, if I see another arch or another this or another that, it's just. It's overwhelming and. And, you know, it's going to be. That was, you know, 20, 25. And I try very hard to avoid that, which. But at the same time, staying fresh and contemporary.

1:06:05 - (Thomas Hamel): I'm very proud when I flip back through my book and think that that book from 15 years ago still feels as fresh as it did.

1:06:13 - (Linda Habak): Relevant. Absolutely.

1:06:14 - (Thomas Hamel): So that's. It makes me feel very good.

1:06:16 - (Linda Habak): Two more questions. If you could whisper something to your younger self, what would you say?

1:06:24 - (Thomas Hamel): Continue to do what you do, but remember and just engage even more. So. I would love to. There's so many periods and things that I didn't engage enough or get involved enough, asking enough questions to actually get to where I am. But I feel so content at where I am in the world. I love being an Australian. I feel very special being here.

1:06:50 - (Linda Habak): It's an honour to have you. Our very last signature question that every guest gets asked. What does Build Beautiful mean to you?

1:06:59 - (Thomas Hamel): For me, no matter if you're building a home or an office, a career, the most important word and what is required the most is passion. And I think you've seen that I have passion. And everyone that I've mentioned today that has influenced me over my time is had this passion that I've tried to take from theirs and build mine.

1:07:21 - (Linda Habak): Beautiful passion. Love it. Thank you, Thomas. What an honor. Honestly, it has been the most amazing conversation. I'm so grateful.

1:07:29 - (Thomas Hamel): To be continued.

1:07:31 - (Linda Habak): We have a part two, everyone. Thank you so much.

1:07:35 - (Thomas Hamel): Honestly, a pleasure.

1:07:41 - (Linda Habak): Thank you for listening to Build Beautiful. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love it if you'd follow the show, leave a review or share it with someone who's building something meaningful. It matters more than you know. Follow us on Instagram buildbeautifulpodcast. Until next time, Keep creating with intention and together we Build beautiful.