0:00:00 - (Linda Habak): We often think of art as something to be hung on walls, in galleries, within frames. But for Kim Elphinstone, art is something to live with, to feel with, to grow alongside. As a curator, advisor and strategist, Kim has spent her life immersed in the world of contemporary art, not just championing artists, but helping us understand the stories behind their work. She believes in art not as luxury, but but as language, a way of seeing, feeling, and remembering.

0:00:31 - (Linda Habak): In this episode of Build Beautiful, we talk about how to begin collecting with heart. What it means to live with art, not just look at it, and how designers and architects can approach art not as decoration, but as dialogue. Whether you're just beginning to explore art or you're rethinking how to bring it into your spaces, this conversation invites you to see art and yourself a little differently. Welcome to my episode with Kim.

0:00:56 - (Linda Habak): Hi.

0:00:57 - (Kym Elphinstone): Thank you, Linda. Thank you for having me.

0:00:59 - (Linda Habak): My pleasure. Welcome.

0:01:00 - (Kym Elphinstone): Welcome.

0:01:00 - (Linda Habak): I'm so excited to have this conversation with you.

0:01:02 - (Kym Elphinstone): I love talking about art.

0:01:05 - (Linda Habak): I feel like you're in constant pursuit of chasing art and artists. That's what it felt like to me.

0:01:10 - (Kym Elphinstone): That's a fair description. I think of my life.

0:01:13 - (Linda Habak): So art was not your first rodeo. So you were a lawyer by trade? I was. Tell me about that and how you transitioned across from that career path to now being in the art world.

0:01:25 - (Kym Elphinstone): Well, I always loved art, even at high school. I had an amazing art teacher at the time, and even though I did art, I took the more traditional path. I became a lawyer and moved to London and worked in law for a while. But I never lost the desire to be in cultural institutions, to be around the work of artists. So obviously, living in London, I had access to an incredible array of resources. So I spent my nights there and weekends and time out of the office, very much diving into the art world.

0:01:55 - (Kym Elphinstone): And I also did a number of courses in the evening, so I did a course at Central Saint Martins and also at Sotheby's in art whilst I was still working, with a view to one day making the jump full time? Yeah.

0:02:08 - (Linda Habak): Was it a calling or was it a moment in time where you just thought, I'm done being a lawyer and I need to really pursue this passion?

0:02:15 - (Kym Elphinstone): I think you always know inside that the passion and the kernel of interest for me has always been in the creative fields. And yeah, look, maybe you deny that for a while if you're thinking about logistics and real life choices, but, yeah, at some point it became something I couldn't deny any further. So I was lucky enough to when I moved back to Sydney. I got a role as head of Comms at the MCA Australia, working with Liz Anne McGregor really closely and all the team there.

0:02:43 - (Kym Elphinstone): So that was my first sort of dive full time in a work capacity

0:02:46 - (Linda Habak): into the visual arts. I love the mca. I have a special spot for the mca. Brilliant. It's brilliant. Cause I love what it stands for, which is Art is for everyone. And all their programs that support different communities to really bring the art world to them, not just draw people into the museum. I think is amazing and it's incredible. Cause these institutions really need our support.

0:03:09 - (Kym Elphinstone): And you know, more so than ever.

0:03:10 - (Linda Habak): I know for the MCA, I think 70 or 80% of its funding comes from private donors. Yes. They get very little from the government. So I think it's important to highlight these things.

0:03:20 - (Kym Elphinstone): Absolutely.

0:03:21 - (Linda Habak): What did you learn when coming back from London, going into a large institution, an art institution? What did you learn from your time in the mca?

0:03:30 - (Kym Elphinstone): It was such a deep dive immersion because whilst I had done a few degrees, postgrad degrees in art, working in the arts is a very different undertaking. I loved it. I was an absolute heaven. But it was a little bit of whiplash from. We worked on maybe, I don't know, sort of 12 to 15 different exhibitions and programs each year. I was in all the curatorial meetings, I was working with the director, I was working with the education team and the programming. So yeah, it was literally jumping into the deep end.

0:03:59 - (Kym Elphinstone): But I learned baptism by fire. Baptism by fire and a lot of work, but absolute heaven in my eyes and working directly with artists as well. So throughout all the installs, one of the great things I think of taking that route into the arts via communications is that you always have that first access to the curators, but also to the artists themselves. So you're there sort of that you might be in the studio with them when they're making the art or when you're doing the previews before the general public get in. I think that's a really special.

0:04:29 - (Linda Habak): I used to go to the opening nights. Fabulous. And I think for me, I fell in love with art through my experience, through the mca, actually. But what always moved the dial for me was when I heard from the artist or the curator and they just took you on this beautiful journey unpacking why the art came to be. It's great to look at art and for art to be beautiful. But I think where the depth and the connection comes from is when you understand the intention behind it.

0:04:57 - (Kym Elphinstone): I couldn't agree more. I think I've had that experience as well. And there's I. Everyone has a visceral response of some sort to art, but where you really start to form a deeper connection with art is where you understand the meaning behind it. What was the artist intending? What's the curator's vision of this? And exactly your experience, Linda, on that is something we should all dive into if we can.

0:05:19 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely. That's right. Get into galleries and museums more, which, you know, is the message physically in real life. Physically in real life.

0:05:26 - (Kym Elphinstone): So much better than digital.

0:05:28 - (Linda Habak): And we'll come back to that because there's a whole research study that came out of London that I want to talk about, but I want to trace your history first. So, mca, what did you do post mca and what did the career path look like after that?

0:05:43 - (Kym Elphinstone): Towards the end of the mca, I actually took a secondment to New York, organized through the MCA to work at the New Museum. So the New Museum was about to move into a new home on the Bowery in the Lower east side in New York, and I was lucky enough to work on the launch of that. So I went over and lived there for six months and worked with the team in house. And then I came back to Sydney and shortly thereafter I left and started my own agency called Articulate.

0:06:09 - (Kym Elphinstone): My first client was the Biennale of Sydney, which was amazing. I had worked with them at the mca, so there was a nice flow through there. And really Articulate is an agency focused on building audiences for the arts through many things. Through publicity, through strategy, PR, through arts projects as well. And 16 years later, I'm still in that field and we still focus very much on the visual arts and contemporary culture, as we like to call it, but dabble in a bit of design, architecture and interior space as well.

0:06:41 - (Linda Habak): That's amazing. You wrote a book. So I'd like to introduce the book because I was reading about it this morning. So collecting and living with art, tell me what sort of propelled you to write the book? At what point did you feel like you needed to dedicate to that whole concept of collecting?

0:06:58 - (Kym Elphinstone): Well, it's been percolating for a while, but I'm lucky enough with my work with clients who are often institutions or biennales or festivals to gain access to some pretty extraordinary collections in people's homes. And often it's an invite only event and you might get to see some incredible artworks in a beautiful space. And it always struck me as fascinating how different people approached how they live with art in a different way.

0:07:24 - (Kym Elphinstone): And ultimately I wanted to share that with as many people as possible by way of inspiration for to start their own collecting journey. Because the other thing that I often encounter is that people who aren't in the art world, not working in that space, can still find it intimidating to go into a gallery or just overwhelmed. Where do I even start? There's so much out there. How do I know which way to go about it?

0:07:47 - (Kym Elphinstone): So the book was really my offering to people as a source of inspiration. Some practical tips, and voyeuristically, to sort of have a look at how other people do it in a really Diverse groupie of 26 collectors who are featured in there.

0:08:01 - (Linda Habak): I really want to get into the weeds around collecting now because. And extract some of these tips that you talk about in the book, because I too, it's a conversation I have all the time with gallery owners, with artists that, particularly for me as a designer, I'm trying to have those conversations around art and art collecting all the time with clients. Some are more receptive than others. I often say you need a really long Runway to get clients there.

0:08:28 - (Linda Habak): How do you gently take someone on a journey? What is the language we need to use? What conversations do we start having with our clients, with people just in general around collecting art?

0:08:42 - (Kym Elphinstone): I think the first thing to say is that there are no wrong answers, and it's a very personal connection. So I think what intimidates people a lot is they feel like they need to know which artists and which galleries they should go to. But ultimately, art is a personal connection. So if you're telling your clients or it's you yourself, going into a gallery and seeing art is absolutely the first place to start.

0:09:07 - (Kym Elphinstone): Look at art and find something that you like the look of, and then dive into that a bit more, maybe find out more about the artist. John Caldor, who's an incredible collector and philanthropist, wrote the foreword for the book, and he sums it up beautifully by saying, really, you just need to look, look, look and look and, you know, access all the amazing free resources we have in our own city and in all cities around the world, local museums, galleries, all the cultural institutions go to their exhibitions and have a look. And slowly. It's like an aesthetic with anything or any taste. You develop it by experiencing it further.

0:09:43 - (Kym Elphinstone): So I think the key thing there is really, there are no wrong answers. Don't expect to have the same taste as someone else as well. You should like what your body and your own taste responds to.

0:09:55 - (Linda Habak): And what do you say to someone who is intimidated by going into a gallery or not so much? I think that the Museums, because they. I feel like they're very inviting and they're accessible, they're open for everyone. And often you see a lot of tourists in there, so you don't feel so intimidated. But I think the galleries can be. And the irony of it is, is every gallery owner that I have a conversation with is we just want people to come.

0:10:19 - (Linda Habak): We just want to have a conversation about art. But there's this dichotomy happening. So how can we unpack that or demystify what's happening for people?

0:10:28 - (Kym Elphinstone): Yeah, I think it's a really good point, Linda, because it does feel intimidating. You walk in, there's. There's no sound. There's. There's. Maybe there's no people or there's one person sitting at a desk and nothing said to you. You know, ultimately, remember, they are desperate. You know, their dreams have come true by you just walking in that door. And they probably prefer that you know nothing because it gives them the opportunity to talk about art to you from scratch, from the ground level.

0:10:54 - (Kym Elphinstone): Also, take a friend, you know, take someone that you can have a conversation. What do you think about this piece? I don't understand that. What do you think? Do you think. Do you understand this? So, you know, having a friend helps, but equally, you couldn't walk up to the desk and say, can you tell me what I'm looking at? As simple as that. Can you tell me about this artist? And that starts then, a human reaction, and they'll be delighted to talk to you. And if they're not, then you should leave immediately.

0:11:19 - (Kym Elphinstone): But I'd be very surprised if any gallery would do that to you.

0:11:21 - (Linda Habak): It would absolutely not be my experience anywhere. But I think there is definitely. There can be a level of intimidation, because that's what I get told all the time by people. And it's just trying to break that barrier down and say, just go. Just walk in. Just have a look.

0:11:35 - (Kym Elphinstone): The other tip on that is most galleries will have openings, so they have a rotating roster of exhibitions. They often change over quite quickly every few weeks. And they'll have an opening night for an artist, and everyone's invited. It's not a ticketed event. They'd love for you to be there. And then you're entering a space, there's probably, you know, a group of people. It's a bit more of a familiar atmosphere. Maybe there's drinks or nibbles happening, and

0:11:58 - (Linda Habak): you can kind of hide away in those times. You can kind of just.

0:12:01 - (Kym Elphinstone): No one's gonna. It's an entirely different Experience, but you still get to experience the art. And maybe you can listen into some conversations about what other people are saying about it. Maybe the artists will talk quite often they. Maybe the gallerist will talk. So you can find out by a quick search online when openings are or have a look at them on socials and try and go on the opening nights. It's a great way to do things.

0:12:20 - (Linda Habak): I agree with that completely. I want to talk about emerging artists. Why do you feel it's important to support emerging artists?

0:12:27 - (Kym Elphinstone): I feel very passionately about this, really. There is an ecosystem of the arts and you have everyone for the emerging artists and if all goes well, they work their way up to being a senior respected artist. But if you don't support the emerging artists at that very start of their career, then there's a chance that they physically will not be able to support their own art practice. Physically and financially, I should say.

0:12:51 - (Kym Elphinstone): And then perhaps they change careers, they stop becoming making art, they stop being an artist. And who knows what we've lost from the potential contribution to our own community and creative life through that. So by supporting an emerging artist, often it's a very cost effective way. If you're starting out as a collector, the price points are usually lower. But you can go on the journey with the emerging artists yourself. You know that maybe you are buying an early work and then you keep across it and you go to their next show and you notice when they.

0:13:21 - (Kym Elphinstone): They make their own steps in their career and it can be an incredibly fulfilling exercise. You create friendships. There's a sense of ownership in that person's career.

0:13:30 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, absolutely.

0:13:31 - (Kym Elphinstone): Which ultimately helps the whole sector, it helps the galleries, it helps the museums, it helps the artists.

0:13:37 - (Linda Habak): You've been quoted saying collecting art is like fostering. So can you talk to me about that whole idea in relation to emerging artists but also established artists? What do you mean by that?

0:13:49 - (Kym Elphinstone): The idea. And we were talking about the difference between buying art and collecting art. And to me, buying a piece of art is perhaps transactional. It feels a little bit like it's a commercial transaction and you're removed. My opinion on collecting art is that it comes from a place of passion and you have a bit more ownership and you're more invested in it. And the idea that you have collected a work of art, you've bought it and maybe you're living with it at home, that you're essentially holding it in your home for maybe for future generations, maybe it moves on and you're looking after it, you're fostering it you're helping the artist in their career, but maybe you don't officially own it forever. You know, maybe it then has a life that moves on. You give it to family or maybe it goes into an institution after that. So it's a sense of looking after and having a closer relationship than a purely commercial transaction.

0:14:42 - (Linda Habak): When you talk about sort of supporting emerging artists, but artists in general, we need to be custodians for them, whether we're designers or collectors, we really need to support them on their journey. And so almost sort of being. Having a vested interest in a way. So I love that idea. Is there a piece of art that you own that really moves you, you feel really connected to? And why is that?

0:15:07 - (Kym Elphinstone): There are many. I would say it's a rotating roster. If I had to choose one. Oh, that is such a difficult question.

0:15:15 - (Linda Habak): I'm going, I'm asking, who's your favourite child?

0:15:18 - (Kym Elphinstone): Well, I do a rehang regularly at home, so I'm gonna think about one that's sort of front and center at the moment. There's a work that I have, it's a painting by a Swiss Australian artist called Oliver Wagner and I bought it from Sarah Cottier Gallery some years ago. Their gallery's no longer running, so he's now represented by Coma Gallery in Sydney. Oliver sands the way he creates his canvases, so it's quite a large scale canvas.

0:15:43 - (Kym Elphinstone): He creates them with what something called, called house paint dust. So imagine a wall in this house and he sands back the house paint and he ends up with colored dust. And in my instance it's sort of a deep purpley, lilac mauvy color. And then he gets the canvas on the floor and applies an adhesive, sort of a glue and he moves the sands and eventually they will stick. And the overall effect are these sort of cascading, almost like a wave has come up a beach. Cascading waves of color and different intensities of the color of the San.

0:16:16 - (Kym Elphinstone): On a large scale canvas, it's about sort of two metres by a meter and a half.

0:16:20 - (Linda Habak): Can only imagine how, which is gorgeous.

0:16:22 - (Kym Elphinstone): And I have it hung at the moment on a sandstone wall. So that extra layering I think is quite interesting. But the way the light plays on it, both in the evening if it's spotlit, but just getting the afternoon light, it's incredibly calming. I find it really ephemeral. And it's one of those grounding pieces in the center of the home, which means a lot to me.

0:16:42 - (Linda Habak): That's amazing. So I want to talk about the impact of art because I'm trying to link it to the value of art. Sometimes I find that people don't understand art or the importance of art. And as designers we're constantly, we're trying to create beautiful spaces not just for the sake of beauty, but actually to change your psyche, your mindset, to make you feel good so that you can go out into the world and art is a critical part of that.

0:17:08 - (Linda Habak): I was talking to you before about a piece of research that came out of London from King's College. But they did a study and they had a group of 50 volunteers. Half of them were taken to a gallery, to London's Courtauld Gallery, and the other half were just shown art, not in the context of a gallery. And they measured heart rate, skin temperatures, cortisol levels and in all cases the inflammation levels were lower, their cortisol levels were lower, the temperature level was lower, everything was improved as a result of being exposed to art and being around in a physical gallery.

0:17:48 - (Linda Habak): I want to talk around the importance of art and why it's not just for. What's the word?

0:17:54 - (Kym Elphinstone): It's not just decoration.

0:17:56 - (Linda Habak): No, it's not decoration. It's so much deeper than that.

0:17:58 - (Kym Elphinstone): Absolutely. And you know, how fabulous to have some science and an actual study behind, I guess the impact that all of us know intuitively the experience of being amongst a gallery of art can give you. Yeah, look, I think it adds an entirely new layer to a residential space. We recently moved house and we're sort of pre renovation and I didn't want to do too much but I used it as an experiment to bring in a lot of our art, but also to hire a few key pieces from Art bank which is the federal government's resource, an amazing library of art that you can do short term or long term rentals of some extraordinary pieces.

0:18:37 - (Kym Elphinstone): And I really experimented with how art can change the energy of a room. Oh, I love this. And I lent into it, it told me everything. Absolutely. And it's fascinating. It completely did. So I've done. We got some quite large scale works and more figurative pieces, maybe artworks that I wouldn't usually have in the past had in my home and really lent into that. And it's been extraordinary to see the reaction of the family, but also all guests that are coming over, their talking points, they've completely changed the whole feel of the room and I've actually done a number of rehangs during that time and to play with the idea of also which works go with each other. So sometime you can also change how one work appears by do you partner it with a work that is in conversation, so to speak, with that work, which is a fascinating way. And playing with scale, having a really large work next to a very small work, textural 3D pieces that come off the wall.

0:19:30 - (Kym Elphinstone): But ultimately if you took all these works off the wall, if all the art was removed, it becomes considerably more sterile. It lacks energy, it lacks interest.

0:19:42 - (Linda Habak): There's.

0:19:44 - (Kym Elphinstone): It feels naked.

0:19:45 - (Linda Habak): Yes. And soulless.

0:19:47 - (Kym Elphinstone): Soulless, absolutely. And also I think the reason it feels like it does have energy and a feeling is that they're works that I've connected with. So for anyone, and I think for designers and architects who are working with clients, they should really encourage the owners of the homes to have a connection to the works that they're buying. Cause it's one thing to sort of say, oh, I need a piece of art on this wall and tick the box and we'll just buy something and put it up there to fill the hole.

0:20:14 - (Kym Elphinstone): I really believe that you should live with works that for some reason engage with you. Do you engage with the concept of it? Are you interested in who the artist is? Are you in love with the texture of it? You know, there needs to be some point connection because you're living with this at the end of the day and it can make a real difference to your day to day life.

0:20:33 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, absolutely. I want to jump from there and talk about the value of art and I want to unpack this idea of when we're looking at art, how do we understand value? Because you have pieces that could be 5,000, 10,000 up to God knows what, you know. And recently I went to a Sydney contemporary and you're seeing really large scale pieces that are $6,000 versus $100,000. And I get asked that question all the time by clients. Well, I don't understand the value. I don't understand why one art is that price and another is that.

0:21:10 - (Linda Habak): So can you unpack that concept behind that?

0:21:13 - (Kym Elphinstone): Absolutely. It's value is a complex question in any field in the art world, not unlike a lot of the creative sectors. I would say the value ultimately comes from the reputation of the artist and the reputation of the artist. There's lots of things that come into that. It might be what stage of their career they have had. It also might be what gallery they are showing with. There's also a high in terms of emerging through to establish artists. There's emerging through to establish galleries who represent them. And in essence the galleries are the agents of the Artist by being represented by a highly respected gallery, that would likely increase the prices of those artists.

0:21:58 - (Kym Elphinstone): Whereas a more emerging artist with an emerging gallery might be at a lower end of the price point. You know, ultimately value is in the eye of the beholder. So everyone has a budget. Let's. Yeah, that's a starting point. And we have to work with that.

0:22:12 - (Linda Habak): We do, that's right.

0:22:13 - (Kym Elphinstone): But there's no reason why you, you can't fall in love with an art at work that is within your budget. There is, there's so much option out there to work with. If people are confused by this, again, it's research and becoming familiar with how the art world pricing is working. If you like an artist, keep an eye on them, find out what their pricing is and also maybe ask the gallerist to show you similar artists in that price range who might be also exploring sculpture, for instance.

0:22:41 - (Kym Elphinstone): But there are certain milestones also that an artist can make during their career. So being included in a major institutional show. So say they're curated into an MCA exhibition, that would be considered a key milestone in their career and their prices may increase at that point. Maybe they're included in an international exhibition, their prices may increase, maybe they win a major prize. So it's a little bit like working your way through a career and your salary goes up as you hit certain milestones.

0:23:10 - (Kym Elphinstone): It's not dissimilar for an artist. It's a profession, professional practice. They have a career. There's things that can happen that can move the dial on their pricing. And equally, it's the association of what gallery they're showing with now, the spanner in the works at the moment. Obviously these days we have social media, which has created a whole opportunity for an incredible generation of artists. And it means that some artists have chosen not to go with galleries in the traditional model and they're using their own, their own profiles, you know, and which is great that they can build an audience without that.

0:23:42 - (Kym Elphinstone): And that, I guess, is a decision for the artist, which way they would like to go. It's probably harder as a collector, it can be harder to assess the value point because the value is being set by the artist and I guess also by. It's, you know, it's a market, it's economics.

0:23:58 - (Linda Habak): Supply and demand, supply and demand.

0:24:00 - (Kym Elphinstone): At the end of the day, the market will make the price. But yes, just be aware that buying directly online, through an artist, through social media, perhaps it's a different market that you're operating as opposed to buying from a gallery. So if you ever wanted to on sell your work through an auction house, the auction house would be interested to know where you've bought it from, who's owned it before all that. Something called provenance is really important.

0:24:26 - (Kym Elphinstone): So, yeah, it's a complicated answer for

0:24:29 - (Linda Habak): you, but I think it sheds a lot of light and I think really unveil, pull back those layers so we understand the industry more, what the different stakeholders are and how to navigate it and give education around that.

0:24:44 - (Kym Elphinstone): Linda, you also just mentioned Sydney Contemporary. So Sydney Contemporary is the largest art fair in Australia every year held in September at Carriageworks. It's a great one if we're talking about getting to know the sector as well, because I call it time travel for art in a way, because you have hundreds of galleries from all around Australia and some international as well, and literally thousands of of artworks and artists often there as well.

0:25:08 - (Kym Elphinstone): And in a matter of 45 minutes to an hour, you can walk around quickly and really get a feel for a the different types of arts on offer. It's a bit of a zeitgeist moment of what are artists making this year. But equally, all the prices are available and all the galleries are there. So you can also get a feel for what's available in your price range. Maybe you've got a range you're working to. You can see what's selling for the big ticket items. You can see the entry.

0:25:33 - (Kym Elphinstone): This works for sale from $50 in. In the prints on paper section. So it's a great way to educate yourself in a really quick manner. They offer tours, often with curators that anyone can sign up for. They're free. So if you wanted to do a quick immersion and understand value and get a full breadth of what's on offer in the art world in Australia right now, going to an art fair is such a great idea.

0:25:57 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely. I agree. It's also the most fun opening.

0:26:00 - (Kym Elphinstone): It's so fun, great people watching, amazing bars.

0:26:03 - (Linda Habak): I have to go three times because opening nights. Exactly.

0:26:09 - (Kym Elphinstone): It's fabulous.

0:26:09 - (Linda Habak): No, it is. It is really fabulous. I love it. I want to go circle back to talk about the emerging artists again.

0:26:16 - (Kym Elphinstone): What are you looking for?

0:26:17 - (Linda Habak): What's your eye looking for? But also, is it an attitude? Is it a way of being. What's that whole sort of package for you?

0:26:26 - (Kym Elphinstone): Good question. For me, I look for a singular point of view. I think they're at the start of their career having a unique concept or vision about what they're portraying and maybe that draws on their own personal history. Or maybe they're commenting on something in current affairs field but doing something that I think, oh, that's interesting. I haven't seen that take before and that the body of work they've created is consistent with that. So they also executing it well and by execution it's the technical prowess to an extent. You know, how have they physically created it? Does it look like it's been done in a high quality manner? So the concept behind it for me is always really, really for some people they're less interested in the concept behind an artwork and they're just more about the visual aspect itself, which is okay as well.

0:27:15 - (Kym Elphinstone): And in that instance, you know, sometimes you'll just really respond to a certain type of work. Is it a. Are you into sculpture? Is it painting? Is it drawing? Is it a color that you, you're particularly into? Is it texture? Is it materials? And that's just a gut instinct at the end of the day. But I always keep an eye out for execution, how well it's been executed and the idea behind it. For me with emerging artists, love that.

0:27:39 - (Linda Habak): I want to also sort of stay on the emerging artists. The journey of the emerging artists. Can we just go a little deeper into why it's so important to support them and support the arts in general?

0:27:49 - (Kym Elphinstone): Look, I think most artists will probably go to art school in some capacity. They'll graduate from art school and each year, for instance the National Art School in Sydney has a number of grad shows. They have the post grad show and the graduate show. They show their works and at that graduation, galleries come through, people come through, the works are for sale. If they're lucky, they'll get picked up by a gallery and maybe then that takes off the trajectory of their career and they start having some group exhibitions, maybe solo exhibitions often sometimes they'll start showing things called Aries, so an artist run initiative. So they're not for profit spaces like First Draft first, for instance in Woolloomooloo.

0:28:30 - (Kym Elphinstone): First Draft provides the first gallery presentation space for artists at the very start of their career.

0:28:36 - (Linda Habak): I haven't heard of that actually.

0:28:38 - (Kym Elphinstone): Definitely worth checking out. It's on Riley street in Woolloomooloo and it's coming up for its 40th anniversary next year. It's launched so many artists careers back in the day. If you look back, the alumni is quite impressive. So they may have a show at an. At a not for profit space and then the curators from the major museums may come around and see their work and see start to curate their work into a show at The Art Gallery of New South Wales or the mca.

0:29:05 - (Kym Elphinstone): And then hopefully they're also showing at a commercial gallery and selling some work to support their practice. Maybe they're showing at Sydney Contemporary. But at the very start of their careers there's a lot of ifs involved and ultimately they still need to fund their practice. There's a financial imperative here. So by buying the works of these artists, it helps them get through this really critical step, first stage of their career, to continue on and become more established.

0:29:34 - (Kym Elphinstone): But I mean a word for mid career artists as well. It doesn't get any easier in the middle. If anything it's harder cause you're not the next hot thing coming through.

0:29:41 - (Linda Habak): Well, that was my next question is so what does that look like then as these careers sort of develop? Because I've seen artists where they're the hot young thing. And then it actually gets even harder as they become more established. And even if they change galleries and sort of move up the ranks in galleries, the pressure just becomes more immense. So it does.

0:30:04 - (Kym Elphinstone): You know, I think institutions play a big role in that mid career because ideally that's when you are on the radar of some key influences in the art, influential people, I should say in the art world. And you're getting works curated into shows and additionally you've got a gallery that is presenting exhibitions of you and pitching you out to other opportunities like to be included in Biennales for mid career artists. They still need people to buy their work work at the end of the day, you know, all the way through there is that imperative of balancing the creative with the realities of the finances and everyone's different.

0:30:41 - (Linda Habak): But yeah, so how does an artist make a career out of being an artist? Because I think it's re. I mean creative careers in general are very difficult. But how do you straddle creating the works and also the than just paying the bills. Like what in your experience having seen, I imagine, you know, years of watching artists build these careers. What does an, a successful artist's career look like?

0:31:09 - (Kym Elphinstone): There's no one, I would say, you know, at the beginning of one's career, artists are often working other jobs as well. It's very rare that you are launching straight out of art school and you are doing full time art practice. You look, that's probably, that's the dream. But in reality people will be working other jobs. Maybe they're working, working. A lot of artists work in the arts sector so they might be installing shows, they might for commercial galleries or for museums.

0:31:35 - (Kym Elphinstone): They might be working in the Administration of arts. They might be working in other fields. So we come across a lot of artists in our work day to day in the arts sector, in the business side of arts, and they're also practicing artists. So often it's juggling a number of roles, which is difficult because there's the creative brain and then you're going into work and do sort of a nine to five day job. So that's a real challeng.

0:31:59 - (Kym Elphinstone): But ultimately it involves a lot of networking I think as well, you know, ensuring that you are getting your work out there. And traditionally that has been the role of a good gallery. Their job is to build the audiences for their artists and ideally to sell the work, but to build the audience also into the key curatorial contacts. But I think the artists that I see who are successful and successful fairly quickly are very good at being out there and connecting with the right people as well, I think, as in probably any industry.

0:32:34 - (Linda Habak): Yes, of course, absolutely. But there's a pressure with that, I imagine, you know, just making sure you're.

0:32:40 - (Kym Elphinstone): It's not an easy places, they're doing it right, calling and you know.

0:32:45 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, that's right, absolutely.

0:32:47 - (Kym Elphinstone): Yeah. It's 100 a juggle and I hugely respect anyone doing that in a full time.

0:32:52 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, that's absolutely 100%. Can you give some advice to designers and architects in terms of approaching a project and actually starting that conversation around art and finding those hero moments in the space from the beginning, what should we be thinking about? What conversations or language should we be using to start that conversation with the client and really try and sort of win them over on this journey of incorporating art from the very beginning of that design concept phase.

0:33:22 - (Kym Elphinstone): I'm so in support of this idea, Linda, because so often I do see people go through the whole journey of design and construct and the client gets to the end and they're done, they're done financially, they're done mentally, they've got no more resourcing on any level. And sadly, art is often the last piece in the puzzle and it's lost, it's sort of left and sometimes never happens. So incorporating art into the conversation earlier is so important, I think for designers and architects.

0:33:53 - (Kym Elphinstone): One I would really encourage people to talk about is commissioning an artist earlier in the stage. So maybe in the design process you're identifying an area of the space which you might invite an artist to collaborate or commission to create something. And yes, it could be a painting, but it could be so much more than that. I know there's some incredible artists who have been commissioned to, for instance, create a.

0:34:19 - (Kym Elphinstone): A whole wall within a room. And they're an artist that works with sort of plaster or ceramics, for instance, it could be the archway into a room that the artist designs, it could be an opening, it could be a door. So there's a lot of physical objects that are functional within a space, which I would really encourage designers and their clients to think about. How could we incorporate an artist into this?

0:34:42 - (Kym Elphinstone): And that way, you're bringing in the conversation around art early, but also you're bringing in the artist's eye into the physical making and the construction of that space.

0:34:52 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely. So talk to me about commissioning. What does that look like in practice?

0:34:57 - (Kym Elphinstone): Well, ideally, firstly, you're finding an artist that you like their practice, so you're interested in them, you like their practice. More often than not, they will be represented by a gallery and you are reaching out to them via the gallery, or if you found them online, reaching out to them directly and simply to ask the question, would you be interested in having a discussion around commissioning for. And then, you know, the details of the project?

0:35:19 - (Kym Elphinstone): In my experience, most love to do this and, you know, it's something a little different for them as well. There would be an agreement, so there would be a scope, like anything, really, if you were working with a specialist, a brief and a scope agreed, a fee agreed. If there's a gallery involved, there's usually a cut for the gallery and they would manage it from their end. If you're working directly with the artist, you need to have an agreement written, signed by them, payment plan, et cetera.

0:35:46 - (Kym Elphinstone): But I've seen it happen many times, very successfully and the results are extraordinary.

0:35:52 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. I did a commission recent, not recently, a couple of years ago, and it was such an extraordinary experience for the client as well. They loved it because the artist came to the house, saw the space, the client was able to go into the artist gallery, into the artist studio and see the works as they were being developed. And it was.

0:36:11 - (Kym Elphinstone): They're part of the process.

0:36:12 - (Linda Habak): They're part of the process and it was beautiful.

0:36:14 - (Kym Elphinstone): That buy in. Amazing. And then they have a relationship with the artist and you know that. So I think there's so much value in that. And then I guess at a more basic level as well, just identifying spaces within the house, when you're doing floor plans, of course.

0:36:28 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:36:29 - (Kym Elphinstone): And having that conversation early, thinking about. And sometimes the artwork can inform the entire scheme, which I think the most

0:36:36 - (Linda Habak): successful spaces are the ones where the art has been part of the conversation from the Beginning.

0:36:43 - (Kym Elphinstone): Agree.

0:36:43 - (Linda Habak): There's something really beautiful about having a holistic space and approaching it holistically. Not every project has that, unfortunately, but the ones that I think I personally love the most are where we've been able to have that rich conversation from the beginning and incorporate it throughout.

0:37:00 - (Kym Elphinstone): Absolutely.

0:37:00 - (Linda Habak): I have another really important question, because this is. I get pushback on this. When you've got a client spending, you know, sometimes $30,000, $50,000 on a sofa, how do we help them see the value in spending equal amounts on the art? Because there's this value pool. I know, from my perspective, I've got clients who, you know, will travel well, have lovely cars, have lovely homes, but it stops there. And they just don't have a connection to art. So what's some tips that you can give us to kind of help us show the client the value in also allocating enough money on art?

0:37:38 - (Linda Habak): Like, what are the words we can use, the language.

0:37:41 - (Kym Elphinstone): I think helping them to have a personal connection to an artist is a really great way in so often in those instances, I would imagine the clients are seeing the art as an object.

0:37:52 - (Linda Habak): Yes.

0:37:53 - (Kym Elphinstone): That has a very grave value to it, and they're not appreciating that it's worth that much. So it's an education piece, and it's probably not a simple phrase, but taking them along to something like an art fair is a really great way of doing things. Taking them to see galleries. I often, at the start of a process with clients, will take them to a number of different galleries, take them, the client into the stock room, show them as much art and diverse options as possible, ideally get them to meet some artists.

0:38:22 - (Kym Elphinstone): So starting the engagements where they can see the value. And also, you know, I would argue buying an artwork is something that you will potentially take with you to every home and space for the rest of your life. Whereas a, you know, couch may last some time as well. But will you.

0:38:37 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, that often you're looking at it

0:38:40 - (Kym Elphinstone): in the ways, you know, you can literally lose. Lose yourself in a piece of art, particularly when you live with it, because you can have hours and hours and hours and see it at all times of day in different environments. And that's when an artwork really opens itself up to you.

0:38:52 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, absolutely.

0:38:53 - (Kym Elphinstone): Whereas the couch, you're not necessarily gazing at longingly.

0:38:57 - (Linda Habak): It can be beautiful, and it can

0:38:59 - (Kym Elphinstone): still be beautiful and it can still be comfortable. I understand that. So.

0:39:01 - (Linda Habak): But you're right, an art can travel with you wherever you go, potentially. But often pieces of furniture are right for that space.

0:39:09 - (Kym Elphinstone): Correct.

0:39:10 - (Linda Habak): So there's a longevity around art.

0:39:12 - (Kym Elphinstone): I agree, yes. And I think it comes back to having a meaningful connection to it. I really encourage people to have art that they connect with. You know, for me, when we moved house, it felt like home once we'd put the art in, because they're pieces that had travel with us from Seville and they're pieces that mean something to us.

0:39:30 - (Linda Habak): I love that. Do you ever go back and think you wish you had pursued a career as an artist?

0:39:37 - (Kym Elphinstone): No. Look, I did art at school, but the more I work with professional artists, the more I. I am in awe of them. I really think you're born an artist. I think everyone's got a little bit in them. But to be a professional artist, because I do see how hard that is, and I so respect them, and I am very happy to be on the. On the business side of the art, if you will, and sort of helping the sector is. That feels right to me.

0:40:04 - (Linda Habak): What's your hope for the industry and for the art sector always to grow further?

0:40:10 - (Kym Elphinstone): My hope would be that more people connect with the art, particularly the visual arts, and that people are not finding it intimidating to go in and just have those first conversations, and that people do make those meaningful connections with the artists, with the galleries, and find pieces out there that they can incorporate into their homes that they'll love forever.

0:40:33 - (Linda Habak): I love that. If you could go back to your younger self, what would you say to her now that you've had this incredible career in the arts world?

0:40:43 - (Kym Elphinstone): Well, it's tempting to say jump earlier, but I really do feel that my early career and background in. In more of a business side of the career path was helpful in what I'm doing now. So I think everything happens for a reason. And, yeah, I. I wouldn't want to unlearn the lessons that I learned along the way.

0:41:03 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, I love.

0:41:03 - (Kym Elphinstone): Very happy with where I've ended up.

0:41:05 - (Linda Habak): Oh, that's fantastic. And what does the future look like for you? And articulate and all the things you're doing?

0:41:10 - (Kym Elphinstone): It's a really exciting time. We're always working on lots of different projects in the arts, but we've just started on the Venice Biennale for next year for the Australia Pavilion, and we worked on the last one, which won the Gold lion with Archie Moore and Kith and Kin. We're working on the Biennale of Sydney, which also launches next year. It's a double Biennale year for us. Lots of major projects with incredible institutions.

0:41:32 - (Kym Elphinstone): We work on Sydney Contemporary, Nun and Gool are in the Southern Highlands an amazing gallery in Barrel, the ngv, working on a show with them that's launching shortly. So lots of amazing projects. And then I'm also helping clients find and commission art for their homes. So I've got some exciting projects in the pipeline for that.

0:41:50 - (Linda Habak): So the private work, how much of that are you doing and are you working with designers and architects? Do they often come to you and commission you to or engage you your services to work with them clients?

0:42:02 - (Kym Elphinstone): A bit of both, actually. So in my advisory work, I work directly with some individuals and they may have completed their home and looking to refresh or reinvigorate their collection. So I'll just work with them directly. But equally I work with designers and architects to have the conversation with them to try and seed art into the process earlier. So I'll work as a consultant still to the client, but in tandem with the architect or designer to provide specialist advice essentially and to help find and secure some incredible pieces that really work with whatever the project scope is. Yeah.

0:42:40 - (Linda Habak): Our signature question for everyone that sits with us is what does Build Beautiful mean to you?

0:42:47 - (Kym Elphinstone): I think to me, Build Beautiful means living with pieces by artists in your day to day life and bringing the beauty into that through your own individual perspective on what engages you in the art world.

0:43:01 - (Linda Habak): That's beautiful. Thank you so much.

0:43:03 - (Kym Elphinstone): Thank you, Linda. Really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.