0:00:00 - (Linda Habak): In a world of polished exteriors and curated finishes, Helen lynch and Karen McCrae are building something deeper, something real. Co founders of McCrae and Lynch Design, the duo met through a shared love of interiors. And together they've carved a quiet but powerful path from television features to architectural drafting accreditation. Their story isn't just about homes, it's about heart. In this episode, we talk about what it means to build with honesty, how reinvention can be a form of creativity, and the beauty that comes when women design on their own terms.

0:00:36 - (Linda Habak): It's about friendship, foundation, and the stories our spaces are waiting to tell. Here's my conversation with Helen and Karen. Welcome, guys.

0:00:45 - (Helen Lynch): Thank you for having us.

0:00:46 - (Linda Habak): I'm so glad you're here with me. So we met not that long ago, actually. And we didn't just bond over our love of design, we also bonded over our podcasting. Exactly. And for me, it was really nice, actually, to meet other people who were doing podcasting. Cause that's a very new space for me. And so we had a long breakfast and exchanged lots of stories about lots of different things. But if we could go back and start at the beginning and talk about how this partnership came together.

0:01:18 - (Linda Habak): Because I know you were doing very different things when you sort of met. So take us back, set the scene. How did it all begin?

0:01:25 - (Karyn McRae): I'll let you lead because you were doing a slightly different career.

0:01:29 - (Helen Lynch): Slightly.

0:01:29 - (Karyn McRae): Yes, A very different career to design. A very different degree.

0:01:33 - (Helen Lynch): Oh, okay. I'll try and do this briefly. So I essentially followed in my father's footsteps of being a schoolteacher, being a little bit older and back in the day, you know, women didn't really have as much choice. Things were changing. But it was always either you worked in a bank, you were a nurse, or you went into teaching, you know, along those lines. Or childcare or something along those lines. So I just fell into it.

0:02:00 - (Helen Lynch): I did enjoy it, but I couldn't stand the politics of it. And I just didn't feel satisfied. Like it just wasn't my thing. So I looked at leaving and changing, but had no idea what I wanted to do. My friends at the time would say, what? You need to do something creative. Because my classroom always looked bright and colourful and I was doing all the things that the other teachers hated doing, like art and creative stuff.

0:02:30 - (Karyn McRae): So.

0:02:31 - (Helen Lynch): So I thought, okay, I'm going to have a look down that path. And then when I thought about it, I thought, okay, I've always been interested in interiors. I've always loved sort of playing around with floor plans and things and so I decided that I'd give that a go and it meant going back studying for another three years full time. But at the time, you know, I didn't have children so everything was great.

0:02:54 - (Karyn McRae): And that's where we met.

0:02:55 - (Helen Lynch): That's where you studied, that's where you met.

0:02:57 - (Karyn McRae): So at the time I had commenced I worked in drafting design offices for Inscand Design over at Northbridge, was doing architectural drafting but looked at the three facets in within the office there and wanted to be part of the interiors team. So they all encouraged me to apply for Randwick because at the time which is now the design centre at Enmore Randwick so we were the last year to go through at Randwick and the first year to start at Enmore Turned up on the first day to Randwick and I was running late and up the back of the class there was a spare seat and this hand pops up and says come and sit up here. And that's where love it first sight.

0:03:37 - (Linda Habak): That's so gorgeous.

0:03:38 - (Karyn McRae): That's where our design friendship and partnership began was back on that very first day at. Yeah.

0:03:44 - (Linda Habak): And when did it transform into a business partnership from. From the get go, the end?

0:03:51 - (Helen Lynch): Pretty much actually.

0:03:52 - (Karyn McRae): Yeah. We were doing little projects whilst we were studying. My father was in construction so we did a few, as you do as a studying student you do a few free jobs and we did those to gain experience which was great along the way. And then at the end as we were graduating, Helen fell pregnant with her first so I went off and got a job in another Hosking Munro Architects in the city and worked there part time four days a week and then started the business with Helen on the side. And then once I fell pregnant with my first having children and then built

0:04:25 - (Linda Habak): the business from there because the business has now been going for it's over 20 years. Is that right?

0:04:31 - (Helen Lynch): Yes, 30.

0:04:32 - (Karyn McRae): 30. We based it on Helen's elders. So Madeline's turning.

0:04:36 - (Helen Lynch): Well, she's 32.

0:04:37 - (Linda Habak): Oh my God, Helen, you look too young.

0:04:39 - (Karyn McRae): She does, doesn't she? She looks way too young to have a 32 year old.

0:04:44 - (Linda Habak): That's crazy.

0:04:45 - (Helen Lynch): It's kind of feels strange but anyway.

0:04:47 - (Linda Habak): So what makes a successful business partnership? Because I'd love to spend some time talking about business partnerships in general. I've been in two business partnerships over the years. One was fantastic and ended for health reasons with my business partner and then the second one didn't go as well and I think part of that was just a breakdown and a lack of communication which I Didn't know at the time. So it's. You know, hindsight's a beautiful thing, but I'm always really interested to talk to people who are in business partnerships to understand what does work, what worked for you. Have you had challenges over the years and how have you resolved them?

0:05:25 - (Helen Lynch): Well, I would say I think we were blessed, to be honest. I think it was meant to be. As we said that very first day at uni and we did projects together and we seemed to work well. We kind of bounced off one another, so that was a good sign. And that gave us the confidence to enter into a partnership. I think the other thing, too, is we have very similar values.

0:05:46 - (Karyn McRae): We do.

0:05:47 - (Helen Lynch): And we were at similar times in our lives. I was a slight step ahead to Karen with the whole family thing, but we were still in the. The bulk of it at the same time. So we had that understanding of our position and where we're at and the challenges that go with being a mum, raising a family and running a business. And now, looking back over all those years and seeing the kind of relationship that we have, it's not dissimilar to a marriage, I guess.

0:06:15 - (Helen Lynch): You're two people, you're in a relationship together, you're spending pretty much all day, every day together, if not physically. You're on the phone, you're zooming, and of course your life gets intertwined, your personal life gets intertwined. So we rely on each other for moral support. We rely on each other to bounce ideas off one another with our design work. It's like having a therapy session every morning. You get into work and it's like, this happened last night or that happened, and we get that off our chest and then get stuck into our work. So.

0:06:47 - (Helen Lynch): And I think you hit the nail on the head with the communication as well. I mean, we have good and bad days. Like anyone, there are days where we will. You know, I don't think we've ever

0:06:56 - (Karyn McRae): had any major issues, but I think we have mutual respect for one another. And because we've been together for so long, we pick up on each other's energy and we know if the other one's a bit down. And we always say, you know, let me make you a cup of tea and let's talk about what's going on, and then we move through the day. But I think, as Helen said, it is very much like a marriage, and we just have a mutual respect for one another's families, for each other.

0:07:23 - (Karyn McRae): You know, it's not about who's doing the bulk of the work, we share the workload, but if somebody has something come in on top of that, we just pick each other up.

0:07:32 - (Linda Habak): So talk to me about how you break up the workload. For me, I know when I was in my design business with another person, I became the admin person and I lost all creative input. And that wasn't intentional. It sort of just happened that way. And again, in retrospect, I look back and I go, well, I can see how that happened. Did you go through a process where you kind of said, I like doing admin, so I'll do admin, I'll do finances, but I'll, you know, someone else will do marketing and sales, for example. Did you break up the roles that way?

0:08:07 - (Linda Habak): And then as far as design, does someone lead the design direction or do you both work on that together? How do you balance all of these?

0:08:15 - (Karyn McRae): I think every. Well, where we can we go to the meetings to meet the initial. The initial meeting with the client together in the event that we both have an understanding of what the project entails and then one sort of takes the lead on it and then if somebody has something come up, then the other one can step in in terms of the other sides of the business. Admin, I guess we've always really shared that the.

0:08:37 - (Helen Lynch): It's kind of evolved over the years and has changed as well, I think, over the years and certain skill sets and things. We both. For the simple reason that you were saying, if you get too caught up in all that admin and all that other side of it, you do lose sight of the designs. Well, not lose sight, but you step out of it and then you need to sort of reignite the creativity and all that.

0:09:02 - (Linda Habak): For me, I was creatively starved. I didn't even know I was. Because I was so in the doing that when we decided to sort of step away, I realised, upon reflection, I was so creatively starved and doing the admin, the marketing, the business structures, doing the drawings, I could do that very easily and naturally, but creatively, I didn't have an outlet. And so I'm just really interested in, you know, how do you balance that when it's two people leading the charge.

0:09:33 - (Helen Lynch): Yeah, I think.

0:09:34 - (Karyn McRae): I think we've shared it.

0:09:35 - (Helen Lynch): It's never been, you do this, I do that. It seems.

0:09:39 - (Karyn McRae): I think that's why we work too.

0:09:40 - (Helen Lynch): Yeah, Talk. But like Karen said, you know, one might start a project, something might come up, or perhaps there might be a clash of personality with that client, the client, and then the other one will step in. There's been a few of those as well, where some clients will purposely play one against the other.

0:09:58 - (Linda Habak): And how do you deal with that?

0:10:00 - (Karyn McRae): The other one steps in.

0:10:02 - (Helen Lynch): Just step in.

0:10:02 - (Karyn McRae): Like we have an internal meeting and say that this is happening. And then, okay, well, then I'll step in for you. I know the project quite well and you just back off a little bit. And we just sort of behind the scenes that happens in the client. And I think having the two of us meet the client in the beginning, it's not. Oh, that's your business partner over there. I don't really know her. You know, we've already got a bit of a relationship with them.

0:10:24 - (Karyn McRae): But in terms of, you know, podcasting and social media, that has been, you know, new facets to the business. So I pretty much do a lot of the marketing. Helen does the podcast and I find the social media, that's another creative outlet. But that's where we've divided that recently. Helen does the bulk of the podcast and I do the social media.

0:10:44 - (Helen Lynch): So.

0:10:44 - (Karyn McRae): But that was, we agreed upon that. And that does. As you know yourself, that's a full time job.

0:10:49 - (Helen Lynch): So time consuming, not a facet to the business. Yeah.

0:10:52 - (Linda Habak): So let's talk about, let's stay there for a moment with the podcasting. How did that come up as a feather in the cap for the business? Because I know I've wanted to do podcasting for like since 2020 and I just never got around doing it. Never got around to doing it. And I'm really interested because really you started three years ago now. 2023, I think it was. Is that right?

0:11:13 - (Karyn McRae): It was meant to be. Before that. We have a business coach at the time and she just said to us, look at the two of you, you have so much knowledge, experience, you've been business partners for such a long time and designing, so you really, this is something that you should try. So she was the one that encouraged us to, you know, be more on our social media and podcasting. I guess the first thing she said is get your faces on your socials, stop just posting about your projects. People want to know the people behind the business.

0:11:41 - (Karyn McRae): And when you have that down pat, then I'd really like you to move into podcast. I think you have a lot to offer.

0:11:48 - (Linda Habak): And so for the context, for the listeners, your podcast, two gins in a designer's perspective, which I'm so honored to have been on, what I love about it, it's so authentic and it's really not just conversations with other designers, but you're actually Both of you on there talking about really specific things and giving value and giving advice, and it's no wonder that you guys won the 2025 best podcast in design.

0:12:15 - (Helen Lynch): Aw.

0:12:17 - (Linda Habak): So, yeah, kudos. Honestly, it's amazing. Do you feel, though, that the podcast has added value to the business?

0:12:24 - (Helen Lynch): Like what.

0:12:25 - (Linda Habak): What has been the number one outcome of doing the podcast for your business?

0:12:30 - (Karyn McRae): It's when a client approaches you and we've spoken on stage at home shows and things of the like, and people come up to you and say, oh, I've been listening to you for 12 months and love the podcast and I've got a project coming up. And that's when we know it's has definitely added value to the business when people say behind the scenes, I've been following your socials, I've been listening to your podcast, and now I'd like to talk to you about a renovation or a new build. So I feel it adds.

0:12:57 - (Karyn McRae): It's just getting them, familiarizing them with us as designers, as humans.

0:13:03 - (Helen Lynch): Yeah, it's marketing in a way, essentially. Marketing is totally different now to what it was when we first started. We just worked by word of mouth. We never even bothered with marketing. So this is a whole new era with the social media and all of that sort of stuff. The podcast, I think things like that, when you get up on stage and you give information and you, you know, I mean, we do it for free at the home show.

0:13:29 - (Helen Lynch): So it's basically imparting that information onto people. Building trust.

0:13:34 - (Linda Habak): Yes.

0:13:34 - (Helen Lynch): Letting people know out there that we know our stuff and we've been around for a long time. So there's a lot of skin in the game. And it's a platform, I guess, to present it to the general public and like, hey, we're here. This is what we know, this is how we do it. And also give some information, which people love, adding value.

0:13:54 - (Linda Habak): And when you were both speaking, I'm thinking that for me, what it does is for you guys is build trust immediately so people kind of know you or have an insight into how you operate, how you think, how you approach a project, what your values are. And so I think that's been a really fantastic thing. What I see from the outside looking in, what it's done for you, especially because you do do episodes where you're giving value, you're educating, and you're so good at it.

0:14:23 - (Linda Habak): I mean, the years of experience is extraordinary. So talk. Can we talk about imposter syndrome a little bit? Because I talk about this with everybody. Because when you Start putting yourself out there. It's quite. Well, I certainly feel it's confronting. Can we talk about that a little bit? And how have you dealt with it?

0:14:42 - (Karyn McRae): When our business coach was encouraging us to do those first reels, to do those first lives on, before the podcast came about, we had a thing on Facebook called.

0:14:53 - (Helen Lynch): It was kind of like a podcast. They were lives we would record, we'd interview people. It actually even started before COVID Yeah, it did. And we would interview people, obviously post that now sort of before we even really understood what podcasting was or that was sort of up there. And we. That was not something that we would ever think of doing.

0:15:13 - (Linda Habak): Sure.

0:15:13 - (Karyn McRae): But I think the imposter syndrome, it is all up in your head. And I think you're more concerned about what, what are your friends and family going to think. Yeah, but they already know you as humans. They know who you are. And you tend to overthink what their perception of what we're putting out there. And it was the business coach that said, but you have so much value to give. Stop. Get out of your headspace.

0:15:34 - (Karyn McRae): Don't worry about. You girls have so much to add and value and experience. So it did take us a while because she was pushing us honestly for two years to do those first things. And then she literally came into a home that we were staying in at the time and said, right. And she picked up the phone and filmed us and said, today's the day and you're moving forward from there. You just, you need someone to push you.

0:15:58 - (Helen Lynch): And it took us a whole half a day. And then she over and over and over the same things to actually go, no, don't like that, don't like that.

0:16:07 - (Karyn McRae): So she filmed the first one, exactly what Helen said. And she was like, see, that was easy. And you two were great.

0:16:11 - (Helen Lynch): Look at this.

0:16:12 - (Karyn McRae): Now I want you to do three more before the end of the day. But it was a lot of overthinking.

0:16:17 - (Helen Lynch): You definitely, I think you just, it's like anything, once you take that step. It's like public speaking, you know, or anything like that. That's out of your comfort zone once you've taken that step. Step. And it is cringe worthy. And you do feel like, who am I to be able to stand up on this soapbox and give information and whatever. I'm just, you know, I'm just little old me and I've got nothing to give.

0:16:43 - (Helen Lynch): But as Karen said, having your business coach and other colleagues in that, in that group offering support and encouraging you and actually pointing out, you've got, you're talented, you've got a wealth of information.

0:16:59 - (Linda Habak): Experience, experience.

0:17:01 - (Helen Lynch): Once you start sort of putting that all together, it's almost like, oh, I do know my stuff. I do.

0:17:08 - (Karyn McRae): We don't have a problem with clients and even walking to a board, if you're doing a club or anything like that and doing the work. And that's one thing the business coach said. You do this, you do realize, you do this daily with your clients. It's just now going to go out to a broader audience and just be confident in who you are and what you do and just take it to that next.

0:17:26 - (Linda Habak): Do you think also the confidence comes with a bit of age?

0:17:29 - (Karyn McRae): Yes.

0:17:30 - (Linda Habak): Over time. So you care more about what people think?

0:17:33 - (Karyn McRae): Yeah, most definitely.

0:17:35 - (Linda Habak): You get to the point where you're like, I don't care anymore. I just. I'm done. I'm done caring what, you know, others think. And I'm just going to run my own race and be in my lane and going back to the cringeworthy point. I don't know if you follow Diary of a CEO Stephen Barlow.

0:17:48 - (Karyn McRae): Love Stephen.

0:17:49 - (Linda Habak): Obsessed with you. And he actually, the day I announced that I was gonna do a podcast, cause I'd been working on it for a few months, I'd read a post from him where he said, he did this long essay on LinkedIn and he said something like, the price of entry is embarrassment. So you've gotta get embarrassed. You've just gotta put yourself out there. But that's the price of entry. If you want to be successful, if you wanna build something that is of value and purpose, then you just gotta get over yourself and you've gotta do it.

0:18:21 - (Linda Habak): That was the day I read that and I'm like, right, I can do this. I wasn't even prepared, meant to sort of, you know, I was gonna announce it slowly in a month's time when we were ready to go. And just something hit me that day and I thought, yeah, I don't like.

0:18:35 - (Helen Lynch): That's it.

0:18:35 - (Linda Habak): That's. It's cringeworthy. I'm gonna hate it, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

0:18:39 - (Helen Lynch): You have to. Because it never gets done.

0:18:41 - (Linda Habak): It never gets done.

0:18:42 - (Helen Lynch): And it, like, took us perfect. No. And it took us a couple of years to get going. But I mean, our business coach was saying, stop making excuses. We didn't think we were, because we had a business to run as well. And as you know, this is very time consuming and we're going, this isn't bringing any money in at the Moment we need to our commitments with our clients. So that was really tricky. As well as just going.

0:19:05 - (Helen Lynch): Being designers, you would know this. You're a perfectionist. You want everything to be right. Absolutely. And it never is going to be on point the first time around.

0:19:14 - (Linda Habak): That's right. And we are responsible for a lot. There are lots of moving parts.

0:19:18 - (Helen Lynch): You can't just drop it.

0:19:19 - (Linda Habak): No. You're on 24 hours a day if someone needs you. Like I was on a FaceTime site meeting this morning trying to resolve an issue and it just has to get done. That's just the nature of the job. And it's time sensitive. Always when you're under construction. Speaking of construction and continuing in the same vein as putting ourselves out there, you were also on my Aussie Build, which is the Channel 99 Life program.

0:19:45 - (Linda Habak): Talk to me about that. Because talk about confronting and having to get over your imposter syndrome. Now you're not just on audio, you're on television. So how did that opportunity come about? And did you at any point think, I'm not gonna do this, I can't do this, or did you just jump into the experience?

0:20:05 - (Karyn McRae): The opportunity came through. There was a girl who was doing our social media and her and I were talking about planning, you know, the three months out. And I said, oh, we're doing this, this, this, this. We're speaking on stage. Oh, also I'm doing a major renovation and Helen and I are going to film it and put it on YouTube and we'll capture that and maybe we'll talk about that along the way in our socials.

0:20:27 - (Karyn McRae): And she said to me, oh, she's down in Melbourne. And she said, oh, that sounds really interesting. I know a few producers down here. Can you write me a one pager on it and I'll see where it lands. And three days later, we had the call and. Plus renovating your own home, running the business. And at the time, we had to go out and find sponsors for the show. So there was a lot of work, there was a lot of admin actually being involved in the show.

0:20:51 - (Karyn McRae): And Helen and I said, no, we don't have time for that. That was chatting to a supplier who had been involved in another Channel nine big production show. And she said, can you ask what

0:21:03 - (Linda Habak): that show that was the block? It was.

0:21:04 - (Karyn McRae): Yeah, it was the block. And so that supplier said to me, oh, we've been involved with the block in the past. It's a huge investment as a supplier. We didn't get much return on it. What does this show involve. And I said, let's run through it. So we ran through the brief and then talked about sponsorship. And she said, sign me up today. She said, you will find it really easy to get sponsors for this show.

0:21:24 - (Karyn McRae): You and Helen are silly, stupid Jackson. You are idiots if you do not do this. This will be great exposure. So then we took it from there. So six weeks later, we had five sponsors on board and went from there.

0:21:41 - (Linda Habak): And did you find it hard selling the idea to the sponsors or was it quite a relatively easy sell?

0:21:48 - (Karyn McRae): We worked out quite quickly which ones we wanted to work with, and we knew that they had done previous things with television. So their marketing. We were dealing with big marketing departments in these, like the national companies, most

0:22:00 - (Helen Lynch): of them, and also a lot of the suppliers that we use with our own clients, like this initial one, they were more than happy because it's like, what are you two up to now? You know, and we tell them and

0:22:11 - (Karyn McRae): they go up to something, they would

0:22:12 - (Helen Lynch): start to think for you and go, oh, I can't. Like, maybe their business couldn't afford the sponsorship or it wasn't a thing for them. But then they go, hang on, let me talk to this particular product's head office. They'll probably be interested. So it kind of.

0:22:26 - (Karyn McRae): It worked itself. Other people, once the first, you know,

0:22:29 - (Helen Lynch): jumped in and made suggestions as well. So it kind of. Which we were quite surprised because we've never done this before.

0:22:37 - (Linda Habak): But I think that's the beauty of it, too. It's the authenticity of. Of not doing it before. It's not rehearsed. It's not sort of.

0:22:44 - (Helen Lynch): No.

0:22:44 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. How did you navigate your process on screen, but also kind of staying true to yourselves, like, how did you manage that whole. Cause I imagine having cameras in your

0:22:54 - (Helen Lynch): face and it can be quite daunting. But as we were talking before with the whole imposter syndrome and getting yourself out there, by this stage, we had done so much social media, we got to the point where we very quickly learned, even with speaking at the home show, the first time we spoke, it was all very structured, all very whatever. I've got to remember this. I've got to remember that. I've got to. You know, and then you have all this stuff going on in your head and then you get up on stage and it's all stuff we know, and it's like, okay, let's just put that aside, that script that we have in our head aside, and just look at the bullet points and just go from there.

0:23:36 - (Helen Lynch): And we found that that came across way more authentic than us trying to be something that we're not. I don't know, something that we're not, or being what we thought we should be to the audience. And it was way more responsive just being ourselves. So we very quickly learnt, let's just be ourselves. One, it takes the pressure off you as an individual. Two, we're at that stage where we don't really care what people think.

0:24:01 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, absolutely.

0:24:02 - (Helen Lynch): And, well, I in particular, was so used to her with the camera, the phone in my face randomly, and the producer.

0:24:09 - (Karyn McRae): You're the actor.

0:24:10 - (Helen Lynch): I'm like, oh, God, here we go again.

0:24:12 - (Karyn McRae): The cameraman actually said to us, oh, you two are really easy to work with. So it was fortunate that our business coach did push us to do, you know, way back, doing the lives and then the podcast. It wasn't so daunting for us. And being ourselves was the easiest way to come across as natural on television.

0:24:31 - (Linda Habak): Definitely the thing that, when I first met you, just the authenticity, you're so down to earth, so real. And I think it's. Honestly, I think it's what makes you so successful at what you do, both in design, but also then in the different marketing avenues that you've undertaken over the years. But I think it's a great example because I know when I speak to lots of really talented designers, and some of them I've had on this podcast, and the levels of anxiety and, you know, lack of ability to put themselves out there, they're always so nervous. They're brilliant designers, but they just.

0:25:09 - (Linda Habak): They just are so uncomfortable. They're so uncomfortable with putting themselves out there. And the marketing hat that I wear, and I'm like, but you have to. How will you build your business? How will anyone see your talent? How will you keep your pipeline going if you don't put yourself out there?

0:25:26 - (Karyn McRae): You have to.

0:25:26 - (Linda Habak): Uncomfortable.

0:25:27 - (Karyn McRae): But it's, as they say, those who market well win these days. And I guess for Helen and I, it's easier because it's the two of us, and we can muck around and laugh and encourage. And then I'll say, okay, I've got this idea and I'm gonna put you on camera. And then she'll say, okay, great, let's do this. And it's.

0:25:42 - (Helen Lynch): I think it has to be easier

0:25:44 - (Karyn McRae): because you can bounce off one another because we've got that dynamic.

0:25:47 - (Linda Habak): Yes, that's right.

0:25:49 - (Helen Lynch): Whether it's like Dutch courage or what, I don't know. But just having somebody else there. Cause I think if it's just on you, you are always going to have in the back of your mind, I'm gonna stuff it up, I'm gonna stuff it up. And you do. And then you've gotta get no one else there to pick up. Like if one of us, you know, as we do sometimes, you just go blank. We're so in tune with each other that the other one will pick up on it and step in.

0:26:13 - (Helen Lynch): So we've got that security, I think as well, which helps.

0:26:17 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely. You can be cringe worthy together. Yes, basically we do.

0:26:20 - (Helen Lynch): And it is nice to have someone.

0:26:23 - (Linda Habak): I use my kids. Cause I'll go, is this okay to post? And if they're just rolling their eyes, I'm like, okay, it's out or I'm

0:26:30 - (Helen Lynch): not gonna do it. Well, kids are great for that. Because I just remember my kids are nuts as well. And I just remember. And it's funny cause this really stands out in my mind. And we were in Ikea. I was in IKEA with Madeline. She had the phone and it was like, mum, go and stand behind that kitchen and just do. And I'm going, no, Maddie, I'm not gonna do that. She goes, no, no, it'll be funny. So she'd have me doing all these stupid things and then posting them going, don't you post that, don't you post that. I've got a reputation to keep up.

0:27:00 - (Helen Lynch): And then I just relaxed and I went, that's actually kind of fun with that. So then we'd walk around and look at the names on things and then we'd make up silly sentences that worked with these names. And then by the end of it, I'm actually suggesting things to do. And we just had a really fun day.

0:27:16 - (Linda Habak): Oh, that's so cool.

0:27:16 - (Helen Lynch): And that kind of took that sort of fear of acting the fool out. So when Karen would go, I think you should do this, I go, yeah,

0:27:23 - (Linda Habak): okay, yes, I'll do it. Do you ever feel pressure though, when you think about the industry to come across as being more polished or like,

0:27:33 - (Karyn McRae): absolutely, that's our industry. That's our industry. And I think working with a few different people, I manage the social media. And then intermittently we'll have other people come in and look after it. It's having outsiders look at it and say, not all the people are looking at your socials all the time, so get over that and just be consistent. And we are in an industry where the polished is. I think I'm gonna put the question back on you. Don't you think that's within our Industry, it's what we all perceive, but the public are happy to see the warts and all of our businesses, I think 100%.

0:28:11 - (Linda Habak): I had Carla Middleton, architect, and she's a gun. I mean, she's amazing and really astute as far as marketing her business. And she said that she was given advice a long time ago that your marketing is either directed to the industry, other designers, or it's directed to your potential client. And you've got to think about, you know, from a marketing perspective, I'm always thinking about who is that client, who's the client avatar?

0:28:39 - (Linda Habak): And you've got to decide who are you marketing to?

0:28:42 - (Karyn McRae): Yes.

0:28:43 - (Linda Habak): And so that's hard because you want to appear a certain way. I mean, I, you know, of course we all want to appear a certain way to our industry peers but at the end of the day, what sustains the business is clients. You do have to separate yourself and they're two very different target markets. So I want to move on now and talk about. You went back after many years in the industry, serious expertise, you decided to do the architectural course.

0:29:11 - (Linda Habak): Design, build. Tell me about that. What was the moment that you both thought were going back to do this course? What was it that triggered that decision? Had you been thinking about it for a long time or was there a particular thing that happened in a particular project that led to that decision?

0:29:30 - (Karyn McRae): It's been coming for a very long

0:29:31 - (Helen Lynch): time, a long, long time. What sparked it initially is the fact that there's no registration for interior designers. There's nothing to say you have the skills and this person doesn't, but you can still be an interior designer. As you know, we can't call ourselves interior architects, even though that's technically what we do. And that's fine. Like, you know, the architects need to protect their registration, their licen and their expertise as well. And that's not what we're trying to take over, but we do many, many projects and we would work closely with the architect.

0:30:09 - (Helen Lynch): But Karen and I kind of work in a holistic the interior has to also work with the exterior and also has to work for the client and their needs. And what we found was people didn't really understand, or clients didn't really understand the impact that an interior designer has on the space and the flow and the funct and the ergonomics of it and all that sort of stuff and the pretty stuff as well, the material selections, everything we architecturally draft. We learnt that when we studied interior design. We started off, dare I say, literally on the drawing Board.

0:30:46 - (Karyn McRae): We were the first year to do the CAD drawing.

0:30:48 - (Helen Lynch): Started to do the cad.

0:30:50 - (Karyn McRae): They brought the CAD in it and more.

0:30:51 - (Linda Habak): But it was 30 years ago.

0:30:53 - (Helen Lynch): It was so basic and so foreign to us. It took us a while to break away from the drawing board to get to that. But we digress. We just got so frustrated of explaining

0:31:05 - (Karyn McRae): ourselves to potential clients.

0:31:06 - (Helen Lynch): People didn't see our worth. And if we weren't as interior designers. As interior designers and as what we contributed to the outcome, we would present

0:31:15 - (Karyn McRae): pages and pages of architecturally drafted details of interiors that the two of us and our team had completed. Mainly the two of us. We've had a couple of clients say to us, oh, yes, after we've had the meeting. So who did the drawings? We did the drawings.

0:31:29 - (Helen Lynch): And this is. Well, in.

0:31:30 - (Karyn McRae): We're not listening to what we were. It was those names.

0:31:34 - (Linda Habak): How long ago was this? Was this early on in your business?

0:31:37 - (Helen Lynch): No, I'd say maybe 10, 15 years ago. It just became very frustrating. And then the two of us kind of thought, we need something official. Yeah. To differentiate from other interior designers. Well, not even necessarily from other interior. For the interior. The imposter interior designers, if you want to call it.

0:31:57 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:31:58 - (Helen Lynch): We just need them to understand that we actually architecturally draft and that it's more like interior architecture, which is where we were coming from, than just the decorating side of things. And it. Because I guess that's really where our true expertise lie. I guess. Absolutely. And we thought about it and thought about it, but having young children doing the mum thing, the school.

0:32:21 - (Karyn McRae): And then we did the cruise ships for five years.

0:32:23 - (Helen Lynch): So yeah, that was a big part that parked it.

0:32:25 - (Karyn McRae): And we were very much beholden to the cruise ship industry.

0:32:28 - (Linda Habak): Okay, can we stop there? Talk to me about the cruise ship industry. Okay, unpack that.

0:32:34 - (Helen Lynch): Tell me about that.

0:32:36 - (Karyn McRae): We were at a women in business networking event and we were actually showcasing our business on the day and we were running the event and another female was exhibiting her business. Her husband was in the cruise ship industry. So he came around and could see our portfolio lying there. He's actually someone who Helen knew could see us running up and down, up on stage, organising these events, showcasing our business at the same time.

0:33:00 - (Karyn McRae): And I think he had the opportunity to bring in some designers into Carnival. He called Helen and said, let's meet, let's see if we. If they will take you on. And there's some projects to be done, some cruise ships to be refitted here in Australia because it's normally done in

0:33:16 - (Helen Lynch): my K or The US or the uk.

0:33:19 - (Linda Habak): Okay.

0:33:20 - (Karyn McRae): So the opportunity came about. We went into the boardroom at Carnival. They rolled out these plans of these ships and said, can you girls design a gymnasium, a buffet, a day spa, Day spa? And we're like, yes, of course we can. Of course we can.

0:33:36 - (Linda Habak): Freaking out at the.

0:33:37 - (Helen Lynch): Totally. So we're both just looking at each other like all confident.

0:33:41 - (Karyn McRae): Of course we can shake hands and we leave the room, we walk out and I just, oh, we've got to go to the bathroom. Maybe we use the bathroom because there was no one else in the bathroom. The two of us are in there going, oh my God, oh my God.

0:33:52 - (Helen Lynch): How are we going to do this? What the hell? What have we said yes to? But not only that, they've just rolled these plans which are rolling out off the end of the. We were hand boardroom table drafting too at the time. We started off doing that and then we transitioned to the CAD while we were in the middle of it. But it was like, okay, great, you need to jump on a plane next weekend to go up to Brisbane because you had to basically follow the ship because they only really stop when they're in dry dock.

0:34:21 - (Helen Lynch): And the two of us like, yep, yep, yep, thinking, how the hell are we going to do this? We've got kids, sport, we've got this. Yeah, I'm going to do.

0:34:30 - (Karyn McRae): But you don't say no to an opportunity like that.

0:34:32 - (Linda Habak): No way. Absolutely.

0:34:33 - (Karyn McRae): So we, we chased the ships for five years. What it did for us, it shut down any other potential business that we could do because as Helen said, they would call and say, girls, in three days time there's a ship that's listed in Auckland. We need you over there, we need you to do a site survey. We're now the shops. We need you to go and check all that out. Okay, off we go. So at the end of that five year period, we really had to restart the business again. But it was a wealth of experience.

0:35:00 - (Karyn McRae): We were the only females on the ships at the time. It was a very male dominated industry and they actually flew a couple of designers out from the UK to check us out. And here's Helen and I in boiler suits carrying boxes of fans and we

0:35:15 - (Helen Lynch): can see these hair all a mess.

0:35:17 - (Karyn McRae): You live on the ship while it's being fitted out.

0:35:20 - (Linda Habak): Really. So what would a typical fit out period take?

0:35:24 - (Karyn McRae): A week to 10 years?

0:35:25 - (Helen Lynch): A week to sometimes two weeks.

0:35:27 - (Karyn McRae): But they want the ship turned a

0:35:29 - (Helen Lynch): week if they can.

0:35:30 - (Karyn McRae): Wow.

0:35:31 - (Helen Lynch): Yeah.

0:35:32 - (Linda Habak): Did you have to think about the way you approached interiors and Designing differently because.

0:35:38 - (Karyn McRae): Absolutely.

0:35:38 - (Linda Habak): Because I imagine you'd need commercial grade products. And so was that a whole learning experience?

0:35:43 - (Helen Lynch): Very much. A lot of research.

0:35:46 - (Karyn McRae): Because there's International marine organization.

0:35:49 - (Helen Lynch): Yes. So we have every material, every product had to be IMO approved. They're basically the certifying bodies of the marine. And it's international waters, so it doesn't come under Australian standards and what have you. And a lot of the suppliers, even though the product may have complied, they had to have that IMO certification. And that was tens of thousands of dollars for them. And if they had a product that was.

0:36:20 - (Helen Lynch): Was evolving and changing that every time they had a new product, they'd have to say a lot of people didn't do that. So we were limited.

0:36:27 - (Linda Habak): So you were limited on what you could specify.

0:36:30 - (Karyn McRae): And then. And then the IMO certifiers come on board at the end of the dry dock, even during. And they. And they check everything out that's been. And they literally can say, rip that out, take that out.

0:36:40 - (Helen Lynch): Oh, we've had.

0:36:41 - (Linda Habak): Did that ever happen on any of.

0:36:42 - (Karyn McRae): The first time was nerve wracking. We were sitting there thinking, please, please. Even though we've done all our research

0:36:50 - (Helen Lynch): and there was something about these lounges, something to do with the foam because we ensured that the fabric was all covered and everything, but something to do with the foam. But we learned so much. So if, depending on which part of the ship things were on, if it was bolted down, 100% had to comply. If it was a loose piece of furniture and it was on a deck, let's say a fire started or whatever, throw it overboard. They throw it overboard.

0:37:16 - (Helen Lynch): If that piece of furniture is inside. And it might not even be the fire rating on the. It might be fire retardant, but they're whatever the makeup of the material or the fabric or whatever it is, if it's going to leak chemicals or whatever. Because what they do is shut down sections of the ship where that fire is. So it was fun. So many.

0:37:39 - (Karyn McRae): It was fun. It was fun work too. It was really.

0:37:42 - (Helen Lynch): It was exhausting.

0:37:43 - (Karyn McRae): Exhausting.

0:37:43 - (Helen Lynch): And thankfully our husbands were very accommodating because the kids were quite little. So, you know, we had a lot of support. So when we take off for dry

0:37:54 - (Linda Habak): dock, you know, for 10 days, yeah,

0:37:56 - (Helen Lynch): they would run the show at home. So it was a fun experience.

0:38:00 - (Linda Habak): And so when that sort of wrapped up, you said you had to start the business again.

0:38:04 - (Karyn McRae): Business started over again. Because we'd stepped back at the time. We had done a few clubs the

0:38:10 - (Helen Lynch): first dry dock 2008 lasted about five years.

0:38:14 - (Karyn McRae): Five years, yeah. So we had to rebuild because everyone just thought of us as the designers that do the cruise ships. So the residential, we were doing medical and dental and really had to build the business again and had to get out and network. That was our job.

0:38:29 - (Linda Habak): I have to tell you in all my research because I do a deep dive on every. I had no idea you did cruise ship design. So I've learned something new today that's amazing. And do you think having to restart the business. I've seen a couple of designers who have been under one brand name for a long time shut down and relaunched under a new name with a new sort of target market and it's been a very successful outcome.

0:38:56 - (Linda Habak): So I wonder if, was it an opportunity in the end? Do you see it as a good thing or.

0:39:01 - (Helen Lynch): Oh, look, it was definitely a good thing in the sense of it gave us credibility. Like, even though the design work wasn't that creative because you were very limited.

0:39:10 - (Linda Habak): Yes, of course.

0:39:11 - (Helen Lynch): And back then too, it was very American, very safe, very. Let's repeat what we've been doing, like for, like, like for like for the last 20 years.

0:39:23 - (Karyn McRae): And we, we got them to step away from. We did, we challenged them.

0:39:27 - (Helen Lynch): Yeah. The comments that we would get, like, this is, I guess this is where we sort of built that thick skin and got over our, I guess imposter syndrome. Just built up a lot of resilience. I think you just, you were go, go, go. You just had to go with the flow. You had to change at the drop of a heart. Like, you know, it'll be like, can

0:39:46 - (Karyn McRae): you girls stay for another week? Because we're going to park this ship for another week and now we're going to do the other end of the ship. So we had to literally design on the fly.

0:39:55 - (Helen Lynch): They had to wait for a fin from Germany. So dry dock extended. So rather than waste that second week because it's all money.

0:40:02 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, of course,

0:40:06 - (Helen Lynch): stay and we'll do all this other stuff. So we're working on the fly. So ringing people. You just made things happen. It was crazy.

0:40:12 - (Linda Habak): Great skills though, isn't it? I mean, you know, we're problem solving all the time. So to be able to do that and learn that and practice that is incredible.

0:40:21 - (Helen Lynch): And also being in a very male dominated with hierarchy like captains and sergeants and all the rest of it, even though people gave us a bit of leniency because, because we're not in that. It was really interesting to see the dynamic behind and yeah.

0:40:41 - (Linda Habak): Do you think there's a bit of humility in starting over? Like, what were the biggest challenges and did it reignite your creativity?

0:40:49 - (Karyn McRae): Yes, when we reflect like you're reflecting. For us, it was. I guess we could have packed it up then and gone our separate ways and we'd done the five years of that. However, we built such a strong working relationship together that we were like, right, okay, we're starting over again. And it was, it came down to networking at first because, you know, the cruise ships, it was just constant work and we had to get out and about and we had to join different groups and get the business name out there again and make those connections. And.

0:41:20 - (Linda Habak): And is that when you went back and did the design build course?

0:41:23 - (Karyn McRae): No.

0:41:23 - (Linda Habak): Okay. When did that.

0:41:25 - (Helen Lynch): Covid.

0:41:26 - (Linda Habak): Oh, you did that during COVID Yeah.

0:41:28 - (Helen Lynch): Yeah. Because it was. That was one of the things. We didn't have time to go back and study running the business. We just didn't have that time. And really, we probably didn't have the time when we did it either.

0:41:40 - (Karyn McRae): The hardest year of our life.

0:41:41 - (Linda Habak): It was horrible. Tell me about that. Because I know a couple of other designers that did it as well. And everyone said they don't even do it over. Because you did it in 12 months.

0:41:50 - (Helen Lynch): Yeah. And that was the other thing that I guess pushed us into doing it as well because we both kind of sat down and thought, it's one year, it's one year not to conserve anything for one year, let's do it. You know.

0:42:04 - (Linda Habak): And did you ever think that just one of you do it and not both of you, given that you're both in the.

0:42:11 - (Helen Lynch): Prior to. We even thought about going down so far as doing architecture, but that it was too big a commitment for where we were at in the business. And, you know, you're getting older and you think, really, do I need to do all that study? So we thought, well, we've got the skills design wise and we can draft. We just need that piece of paper to.

0:42:33 - (Linda Habak): That was really a tick box.

0:42:35 - (Karyn McRae): It was.

0:42:35 - (Linda Habak): Did you learn anything? What did you learn about from the course and what did you learn about

0:42:40 - (Helen Lynch): yourself doing the course that we still had it in

0:42:46 - (Karyn McRae): that I never want

0:42:46 - (Helen Lynch): to go back and study again and

0:42:49 - (Karyn McRae): run a business at the same time.

0:42:50 - (Helen Lynch): And run a business at the same time.

0:42:51 - (Linda Habak): How did you manage it? Cause I know for a lot of people Covid was the busiest time ever in their business or careers. I still don't know how you did it.

0:43:00 - (Karyn McRae): I'll be honest with you. My husband walked in One weekend, I think it was around April, and I was at the desk and I think I was having an emotional moment. We had a lot of work on at the time when we were studying. And he's like, tapped me on the shoulder, are you okay? And I just went, I don't know

0:43:16 - (Helen Lynch): if I can get through this.

0:43:17 - (Karyn McRae): This is so much work. There was. The assignments were really intense and there was. There was so much drafting to do.

0:43:24 - (Helen Lynch): And a lot theory, too.

0:43:25 - (Karyn McRae): A lot of theory to tick boxes. But he's like, no, you've got this. I know you and Helen, you'll do it. You'll do it.

0:43:32 - (Helen Lynch): Well, the good thing about it, too, was that even though the course was full time, they got this right. Instead of having it spread out over the week, we had one day where

0:43:43 - (Karyn McRae): we had to be 9 to 9.

0:43:45 - (Helen Lynch): And because everybody in that course and it was only a small group who had businesses to run or, you know, we were kind of in the same situation as us, they were pretty lenient as far as flexibility. And they kind of knew that, well, you're here because you want to be here, so we don't have to. It's not like someone straight from high school that they've got a push and push and push. So that was good. But that one day we knew, okay, every Tuesday, can't do anything on the business.

0:44:12 - (Helen Lynch): And then the Wednesday, we were seven days, we would work on the business, and then the weekends work on the assignments. We would do all the assignments.

0:44:20 - (Linda Habak): Did you feel that the assignments added to your knowledge base and your experience? Like, did you walk away thinking, I've actually learned a lot, or did you?

0:44:30 - (Karyn McRae): The council side of things. Because now we're licensed, that we can submit CDCs, work with the certifier and do the DA. So that clarified that for us because that can be a whole other. Oh, yeah, it's a whole other black hole, really. So learnt a lot about that process. The design and drafting side.

0:44:50 - (Linda Habak): You kind of have.

0:44:50 - (Karyn McRae): We already have that.

0:44:51 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:44:52 - (Helen Lynch): There were things that we did sort of pick up on the program that we were using. There were things that we actually said to the lecturer, oh, this is how we've done it. We taught the lecturer a few times and they've gone, oh, okay, all righty. And then there'll be things that we go, hey, how do you do this? Because I've been doing it this way and I'm sure there's an easier way.

0:45:10 - (Karyn McRae): We got technical skills.

0:45:11 - (Helen Lynch): Yes.

0:45:12 - (Karyn McRae): And how to handle. Or the council process for residential.

0:45:16 - (Linda Habak): And so now with that qualification, have you been doing more sort of CDC applications and council applications and running that full.

0:45:25 - (Karyn McRae): We finally got our registration only a couple of weeks ago.

0:45:28 - (Linda Habak): Congratulations.

0:45:30 - (Karyn McRae): So that's a ball game in itself and hope to. Because now we can work on Class 2 buildings. We have done them in the past, like recently we did Club Bondi, but they engaged our services years ago, like just before COVID So because they'd already signed with us, we could see the project through. But now we would have to be Class 2 registered. Yes. Which we are and we hope to pick up. We have to pick up more work for that to keep the license current.

0:45:55 - (Karyn McRae): Oh, right.

0:45:56 - (Linda Habak): So it's like an architectural license. You have to have certain number of points every year. I mean that's going to keep you in good stead because there wouldn't be that many designs. There's not designs that have got Class two.

0:46:07 - (Karyn McRae): So we need to market that.

0:46:08 - (Linda Habak): We do need to mark that. Although you're not selling how hard it was to go back and study for. Well, now it's two years, right?

0:46:17 - (Karyn McRae): Yes.

0:46:18 - (Linda Habak): It's going to be really interesting. I think we're in a really interesting time in our industry. Because you touched on it before. There's no accreditations. There's no way to know if someone's a stylist versus a decorator versus an interior designer, other than whether you've done it at university or you've got the diploma.

0:46:37 - (Helen Lynch): They don't take that into account.

0:46:39 - (Karyn McRae): I think it's a good thing though. I think it.

0:46:41 - (Linda Habak): I agree.

0:46:42 - (Karyn McRae): Definitely needed to happen. It's been a long time coming.

0:46:45 - (Linda Habak): Yeah. And it's still coming, I think. I mean it's still, you know, I think we're still a couple of years off, I think from really having those definitions in place and then the registrations in place. And I think everyone needs to be on the DIA and be part of the Design Institute of Australia so that we can, you know, they're advocating for us, they're working so hard for all of us as a cohort. So it's interesting times ahead.

0:47:11 - (Linda Habak): But I think ultimately you've got a fantastic marketable asset that you can use now because there are so few Class 2 designers that are registered. I did quite a few apartments in about a two year block that all of which I could not do now, even though on all of those we pulled out walls, we. And technically we had engineers years certified that that was fine, but now that's not even possible. Like I wouldn't even touch a project like that. Now there's just too much liability.

0:47:43 - (Helen Lynch): There are so many gray areas still within this design practitioner registration. And even though we'd done building design, so we have that accreditation under our belt plus Diploma of Interior Design, really the only thing that it did in order to get our design practitioner is that we had the qualification of building designer. Our interior design side of it had no relevance whatsoever. But getting your registration you needed to have equivalent of five years experience over the past 10 years.

0:48:16 - (Helen Lynch): What I didn't realise until I was doing the application, it had to be in Class 2 building, Class 9A or 9A or B or C building, which was either medical or hotel.

0:48:32 - (Linda Habak): In order to get the class two registration you'd had to have five, you

0:48:36 - (Helen Lynch): had to have expired class two, class three, which was medical 9A. Like hotel accommodation. Well, the cruise ship is a floating hotel, but it's on international borders.

0:48:47 - (Karyn McRae): Didn't apply for five years and we

0:48:52 - (Helen Lynch): did stacks of medical, but a lot of it was 10 years prior. So then we also had Covid in between, which most of the work that we did in Covid was residential. Just class one.

0:49:03 - (Linda Habak): Yes. Yeah.

0:49:04 - (Helen Lynch): So we were really struggling. And even though we did over this

0:49:07 - (Karyn McRae): 30 year period of work.

0:49:10 - (Helen Lynch): Yeah, but it had to be in the last 10 years. And then even though we had made like we had done major praise, we did this private school administration, the whole administration building which was huge, covered probably five or six different classes except for those we did the club, all of the actual club, the bars, everything else back of house. There was egress, there was fight, there was a whole bit.

0:49:36 - (Helen Lynch): But if we had have done a

0:49:39 - (Karyn McRae): unit one apartment above, we would have been.

0:49:41 - (Helen Lynch): It covered about another five or six classes.

0:49:44 - (Linda Habak): When you go. Did you ever go back and give the powers that be feedback on that?

0:49:50 - (Karyn McRae): No. We should actually, we should.

0:49:52 - (Linda Habak): Do you think that they just through the group.

0:49:54 - (Helen Lynch): We will.

0:49:54 - (Linda Habak): I think you need to. Or through the DIA as a. As an example of that.

0:49:59 - (Helen Lynch): Well, what I did because it's kind of like putting a DA application in. You put all your experience in, you date it all. The other thing they didn't count was if they overlapped. So how many of you just do one project? So we had like two really big, big dental surgeries and endodontists. And there are so many things that you have to comply with in the medical scenario, not just accessibility. And the same with the cruise ships and the same with the hotel that are above and beyond.

0:50:31 - (Helen Lynch): See, to Me A Class 2A unit is really no different to Class 1 unless you're designing the building, it is

0:50:37 - (Karyn McRae): because you're dealing with, you know, body corporates and all that sort of stuff.

0:50:40 - (Helen Lynch): But all these other classes still tick all those same boxes.

0:50:44 - (Linda Habak): You can do that.

0:50:46 - (Helen Lynch): Exactly.

0:50:46 - (Linda Habak): Yeah.

0:50:47 - (Helen Lynch): And it was like, oh, we'll count this dental surgery. But that overlaps with that. So we're not counting that. So if it goes for three, four, five months, they don't count. They only count one of them.

0:50:58 - (Karyn McRae): It's ridiculous.

0:50:59 - (Helen Lynch): They ended up counting the club, which was a relief. But that went over four years. Yeah, probably technically three I guess by the time. And so then I'm scrounging because we did a hotel at Potts Point so it just scraped in the 10 year period. There was another one that we did that was outside of the 10 year period so I couldn't use that. But when we were going through and they'd sent through the request for information, I actually said no one does one project at a time, so why can't you?

0:51:32 - (Linda Habak): I think this all comes back to the government in itself doesn't actually recognize interior design as a profession. And because they don't, they don't understand how interior designers work, how interior design businesses work. And so therefore I think there's just no knowledge of it. So they don't, you know, agree. They're just saying here is a set

0:51:53 - (Helen Lynch): of criteria you have to take in that.

0:51:55 - (Linda Habak): Exactly. So going forward, is your focus on residential or are you open to doing commercial? Where do you see the business business over the next 10 years? What's the vision?

0:52:06 - (Karyn McRae): Well, going back and studying, we definitely want to be working in Class 2 buildings because that's the whole point of having the registration. So we'd like to push for more of that. We tend to work, tends to come in blocks. We'll get lots of residential or we'll get lots of medical and dental office fit out. Yeah. So I think for the next 10 years definitely maintaining that license and working in class two buildings. But we love doing the residential as well.

0:52:30 - (Karyn McRae): That's almost like a bread and butter for us.

0:52:33 - (Helen Lynch): We've always done a mix of design, commercial, residential.

0:52:37 - (Karyn McRae): Yeah, we haven't niched ourselves down, have we?

0:52:40 - (Linda Habak): So we're coming to, sadly, the close to the end of the conversations. If you could go back to your younger selves when you first met one another, what would you say to yourself when you look back?

0:52:54 - (Karyn McRae): Be in it for the long game? I think as a graduate, do you think your career is going to flourish and everything's going to open up and happen within those first five years of graduation, we were saying before, we're problem solvers and you need to have the experience. And as Helen says, skin in the game, too. It's a long game and it's a continuing learning career. So be in it for the long game. Don't think patience, patience.

0:53:19 - (Helen Lynch): You need patience. You need thick skin. You need to get over yourself. You need to go along with the roller coaster ride because that's essentially what it is. There's lots of ups and downs and financially it's a very bumpy, bumpy road.

0:53:36 - (Karyn McRae): And charge your worth. That has taken a long time.

0:53:38 - (Helen Lynch): That's. I think that was the hardest thing.

0:53:41 - (Linda Habak): Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. I know we're meant to be wrapping up. I think it's important because it's one of the things, you know, talking about. Talk to everyone I have on the podcast about what does that mean for you? What does, like, give me a concrete example of what does that mean for you and how do you do it now versus how you were doing it five or 10 years ago?

0:54:02 - (Karyn McRae): It was guesswork. Five or 10 years ago. Oh, I think it'll take roughly that amount of time and I think we should charge this. And then you tally it all up and we would look at the bottom line of what we were charging. Oh, they're not going to pay that. So know your worth. But then putting in place a system with literally a spreadsheet of every actionable thing you were going to do on that job, from the admin to the design development to, you know, printing and all the things, traveling, traveling meetings, and cost it out in a spreadsheet. And when that number comes out, add 20% contingency, which we only learned that,

0:54:36 - (Helen Lynch): I think, when we did that exercise, that was a real eye opener, because it's like that imposter syndrome. We would adjust according to the client,

0:54:46 - (Karyn McRae): to the personality of the client.

0:54:48 - (Linda Habak): And you're making assumptions, right. You don't even know them, really.

0:54:51 - (Helen Lynch): Yes. We'd adjust our value on what we thought they placed value on. And I think time and experience and getting older as well, you realise, well, hang on, this is what we're worth. And I think now you're also less. I don't want to use the word desperate because that's not really the right word. But you're less inclined to just take the next one for fear it's not, you know, I better take this now because I don't know when the next one's gonna be.

0:55:20 - (Helen Lynch): So you would adjust in order to get that. So we would have such a great strike rate of winning projects. And then, as my husband said, yes, well, if you're winning every single one, then you're not charging enough.

0:55:32 - (Linda Habak): Absolutely. And do you negotiate if someone. Because commercial, I imagine, is pretty rough and tumble with, you know, budgets.

0:55:41 - (Karyn McRae): So we did negotiate, but not so much now. And the clients that say, can you pull this from the contract and take that from the contract, we used to buy into that and go, oh, okay. And then you go back and readjust the parts that they would pull out. You were still going to do it anyway because it was the whole process of the design development. So now we don't.

0:55:59 - (Linda Habak): Don't do that. So it's all or nothing. You're either in or you're out.

0:56:03 - (Helen Lynch): Yeah, I think we're at that stage now where we charge what we worth or what we believe that we're worth and the value that the client is going to get from it.

0:56:13 - (Karyn McRae): It's an investment. They're investing in us.

0:56:16 - (Linda Habak): That's right.

0:56:16 - (Helen Lynch): And people say, oh, but you just press a couple of buttons and you do this. No, no, you don't see the six or seven different option layouts that we've done. We only hand you one or two because we don't want to confuse you when we've already worked out which are the better ones. Picking materials and finishes and pulling it all together. That's years and years of experience. And it mightn't take us as long as what it would take a graduate or even the client themselves.

0:56:41 - (Helen Lynch): But you're not paying for time. You're paying for experience and knowledge and expertise. And takes us a long time to get there.

0:56:51 - (Linda Habak): Hey, it's a long Runway.

0:56:53 - (Karyn McRae): For sure.

0:56:54 - (Linda Habak): For sure. Oh, it's been such a good conversation. Honestly, I could go on hours. But I'm going to ask you our signature question to both of you. What does build beautiful mean to you?

0:57:05 - (Karyn McRae): I think to build beautiful is to be conscious of not building for the now, but building for the future. Being very mindful of selections of materials, and look at the longevity of the design and the build. And if it's for a client, be true to yourself and build for your own home, your own family. If I'm talking residential, build for yourselves. Build beautifully for the long game, the long term.

0:57:34 - (Linda Habak): Love that.

0:57:35 - (Helen Lynch): I'll expand on that because that's. I agree with 100% with everything you're saying. From a client's perspective, I think it means for us as designers and acting, I guess, on behalf of the client, it's up to us to bring out all of those things that Karen just mentioned and to guide that client into understanding what it is they want because a lot of them don't really know what they want or they want the latest trend and it may not necessarily resonate with them.

0:58:07 - (Helen Lynch): And it's up to us to ask the right questions and guide and direct them into digging deep and finding out what they really want and what they really need and again, future proofing it and I guess holding hands and at the end coming out with a space that they can walk into and your

0:58:27 - (Karyn McRae): shoulders drop, you're relaxed, you're home.

0:58:29 - (Helen Lynch): Yeah, it feels right. It works for them. It can evolve with their changing needs and then it's beautiful. It's all come together.

0:58:39 - (Karyn McRae): Absolutely.

0:58:41 - (Linda Habak): Ladies, thank you. Fantastic episode. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. It's been amazing.

0:58:47 - (Helen Lynch): Thanks, Linda.

0:58:48 - (Karyn McRae): Thanks, Linda.